Anti-vaxxers have embraced social media. We’re paying for fake news with real lives

‘Fake news’ may be the latest buzzword, but there’s nothing new about it. It’s been around for decades and vaccine safety is one of its oldest targets. For years, cynical anti-vaccine groups have attempted to manipulate public opinion and undermine public trust with fabricated stories and appeals to emotion over hard fact, and in doing so they have put lives at risk.

In 1998 immunisation rates plummeted in the UK and cases of measles soared, after research was published falsely claiming that the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine caused autism. Two decades later Andrew Wakefield, the author of that report – a British surgeon who has since been struck off – is continuing his relentless campaign via social media. Despite the mountains of scientific evidence to the contrary, too many people are buying into it.

As a result immunisation levels have fallen to dangerous levels across Europe and North America, leading to outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease in the US, Italy, France and Germany and beyond. The largest outbreak has been in Romania, with more than 7,000 cases of measles and 30 deaths in the last year. In the UK uptake of human papillomavirus, which protects girls against the main cause of cervical cancer, has dropped in places like Derbyshire to below 50 per cent.

Opposition to vaccines is not new either. It dates back more than a century, most notably with Minnesotan seamstress Lora Little and her campaign against smallpox vaccinations. Little’s conviction was grounded in her firm belief that the vaccine was responsible for the death of her son. She used arguments uncannily similar to modern anti-vaccine groups, combining heart-rending personal tales with conspiracy theories implicating doctors, politicians and the health industry. It worked. Little successfully campaigned to have legislation introduced in 1903 prohibiting compulsory vaccination as a pre-condition to attend school. Three years later Minnesota experienced a major smallpox epidemic that infected 28,000 people.

So why was Little’s campaign so successful? Was it due to a lack of knowledge of the scientific evidence available? Recent experience would suggest not. The internet has given us unprecedented access to information. Yet all too often we use the vast amount of knowledge and new ideas now freely available to reinforce what we already believe.

One reason for this is ‘confirmation bias’, the natural human tendency to seek out and embrace information supporting pre-existing beliefs, while ignoring anything that opposes them. This is one reason why so many people are so willing to believe Wakefield’s fraudulent claims. By playing on the inherent desire of parents to protect their children, it is possible to use misinformation to foster fear. Pleas by public health officials citing decades of solid scientific research fall on deaf ears.

In the late 1990s this enabled anti-vaxxers to campaign successfully for the removal of the preservative thiomersal from almost all vaccines in the UK, Europe and the US, on the mistaken grounds that it was responsible for an increase in cases of autism. Yet cases of autism continued to rise long after thiomersal was removed from vaccines.

This confirmation bias is now compounded by social media, where advertising algorithms point us to news and content that are similar to what we’ve viewed before. This effectively turns our social media feeds into echo chambers. For anti-vaccine campaigners this is great news; social media isn’t just a new platform to reach the public, it also gives this very vocal minority a means to massively amplify their message.

The proliferation of free news means it’s going to become increasingly difficult to know what is real and what is not. Public health workers must rethink how they communicate to tackle hesitancy over vaccination. That means focussing on the positive gains, rather than trying to counter anti-vaccine claims, which can often have the opposite effect, reinforcing the fallacy. But ultimately it is up to all of us to ask ourselves if we are giving more weight to articles we read online which confirm our beliefs. If not, we could end up paying for fake news with real children’s lives.

Seth Berkley is the CEO of Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance


  • Anne Dachel

    Seth Berkley omits the fact that thimerosal (thiomersal) is half mercury–a known neurotoxin. He also fails to tell readers that it’s still at full levels in the annual flu vaccine. This vaccine is given to pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy.
    The “mountains of scientific evidence” showing vaccines are safe are nothing but easily flawed and manipulated population studies–all of which have been shown to have ties to the vaccine makers.

    This is what we know:
    thousands of parents claim that their child was healthy and normally developing until they received certain routine vaccinations,
    officials refuse to call for a study to compare the autism rates in fully vaccinated and never vaccinated children,
    the childhood vaccine schedule has more than tripled since the 1980s without a single study on the cumulative effect of so many shots so soon,
    and parents know that there are mountains of scientific evidence from leading independent researchers showing serious risk from our unchecked, unsafe vaccine schedule.
    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

    • ILoveJellybeans

      Actually, youre wrong, but then again, youre from Age of Autism, which is to be expected. One of those autism organisations that is hated by actual autistic people because of their harmful teachings about all sorts of abusive treatments.
      .
      Thimerosal does contain mercury. That is right, and it isn’t hidden, you can even find this information from the FDA and CDC. The thing is, there are two different kinds of mercury. Ethyl- and methyl-. One is more harmful than the other. Thimerosal contains the least harmful one, and there are only small doses in some versions of the flu shot. The more harmful kind is found most commonly in fish like tuna, in much higher levels, and we eat fish a whole lot more than we have vaccines, at much higher doses. But does tuna cause autism? No, of course not.
      .
      Manipulated studies like Andrew Wakefield changing the data in his study to make it look like the children’s health problems started with vaccines, when their medical records say otherwise, because he was being paid by antivaxxers? Or maybe like the study talked about in the “CDC whistleblower” thing, they manipulated the data, chopping it all up until something fit, even though the group they were looking at was so small they had to shave a few months off the age range to make it fit.
      .
      Thousands? Considering there are four million babies born in America each year, and over 90% are vaccinated, and about 1% of people are autistic, it seems rather like a coincidence. When you play with big numbers, youre bound to find some correlation somewhere. When websites collect anecdotes that fit with the vaccines cause autism theory, theyre ignoring the rest of the data, from children who were vaccinated but are not autistic (the majority), from children who are unvaccinated but are autistic, and from children who were vaccinated and autistic, but their parents noticed no correlation between the two.
      .
      Of course thousands can say that. The website is collecting the data specifically of stories that fit theirs. Nobody’s collecting anecdotes from parents whose child started displaying autistic signs in June, or the day after their birthday. Especially because the MMR vaccine is given at about the time that autistic traits are most commonly noticed. Especially because there are other people who didn’t connect it at the time, but now, thinking back (primed by the stories) are possibly misremembering it. Like if someone went fishing, and caught a fish, after telling that story over and over again, the fish is now double the size it originally was, because telling the story can rewrite memories and distort them over time.
      .
      If a website manages to get 2000 anecdotes from parents who believe vaccines caused their child’s autism, that sounds huge and statistically significant, but those anecdotes only represent 0.05% of the babies born in the same year as them.
      .
      Coincidentally, the only studies you are claiming are fake and don’t count, are the ones that agree with you, and all of the ones that back up your opinion are so obviously true and honest. That’s a little biased, don’t you think? It takes a big leap of faith to say “everyone is lying, but these specific sources who all agree with me, trust me on this one that I am actually not the one who is lying”

        • AutismDadd

          Nice shillin. The old vaccine induced autism is a coincidence ruse.

          • So where is your evidence for both after and because?

          • AutismDadd

            Thousands of eyewitnesses actually

          • So the evidence for because is? Ad populum does not count.

          • AutismDadd

            Only a buttcrack would say that.

          • AutismDadd

            Had to upvote myself for this one.

      • ciaparker2

        Ethylmercury is just as dangerous as methlmercury and has never been responsibly tested for safety. In the thirties they tested it on a group of people dying of meningitis. All of them died. Thimerosal was therefore deemed safe. ???

        http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/about-vaccines/vaccine-ingredients/mercury/

        One of you shills was going on and on the last few days about no vaccine ever having had any mercury, that since thimerosal was a compound, the mercury in it had been rendered harmless. Obviously false.

        Most of the Lancet Twelve were healthy until they got the MMR, and then within days or weeks regressed into autism and bowel disease. One mother had one son who did so and didn’t want to vax her second son, but because everyone around her browbeat her over it, she finally succumbed and gave him the MMR, and he immediately regressed into autism and bowel disease. The MMR often causes autism and bowel disease, although the hep-B vaccine often does so as well, the flu vaccine, DTaP, and HIb vaccine fairly often.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Wakefield? Youre choosing WAKEFIELD?
          Oh come on, the guy was a fraud.
          The twelve subjects in the Lancet paper that is now retracted were NOT all healthy before the MMR. Not according to their medical records anyway. In reality, some had health issues before the MMR, others did not start with them until months afterwards.

        • shay simmons

          Wakefield fabricated his results, parker.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/

          • AutismDadd

            You can throw that typical shill link on the compost pile. Its pure propaganda and just another ruse about Wakefield.

    • FallsAngel

      “. . .t’s still at full levels in the annual flu vaccine.”

      What a lie, Anne! 70% of the US flu vaccine market is thimerosal-free.

      • ciaparker2

        Standard Fluzone still has 50 mcg of thimerosal per dose, which is 25 mcg of ethylmercury per dose, which is as much as it ever had. Our local supermarket ONLY stocks this mercury-containing version for routine use in flu shots, although you can special order the single-dose version if you really want to and are willing to wait a few days. Most people aren’t.

        • FallsAngel

          The H*ll it does cia! Standard fluzone is thimerosal-free. 70% of the flu produced in this country is single dose, thimerosal-free. Do you expect me to believe that in Columbia, MO, with a population of 120,000 people has only ONE supermarket where one can get flu shots? I get a lot of hits on Google. Try Walgreen’s. That’s where I got mine last year and it was t-free. I see there are two Walgreen’s locations in Columbia.

          How do you know what “most people” are willing to do? Most people don’t chelate themselves like you do.

          • ciaparker2

            “Even if you are young and healthy, you may be a carrier of influenza. Protect those you love, particularly the very young and the very old, by getting your flu shot each
            year. There are several different types of vaccine available this year. We
            are offering the traditional vaccine which protects you against three of the
            most common viruses, the newer Quadrivalent vaccine which protects you against
            four of the most common viruses, and the High-Dose vaccine which is approved
            for those over the age of 65. A few minutes are all you need to protect
            yourself and your loved ones against the flu.

            If you are pregnant and need a preservative free flu shot, if you are over 65 years old and need a high dose flu shot, or would prefer to receive the Quadrivalent shot, please call
            314-994-4000 or toll free 1-888-920-SHOT to schedule your appointment.”

            https://schnucks.reportsonline.com/ssched/program/immunizations/Patient/Advisory

            “Join the Schnucks Flu Fighters. A flyer distributed at the chain supermarket Schnucks: Bullet point number 1 says: “Fluzone vaccine
            is for people who are 6 months and older. Fluzone vaccine is a shot given into
            the muscle or skin of the arm.”

            Bullet point 2 says: “Fluzone High-Dose vaccine is a preservative-free
            vaccine that is a higher dose of Fluzone for people 65 years of age and older.
            Fluzone High-Dose vaccine generates up to 80% higher antibody levels in the
            body, providing a significantly higher response from the body against the
            flu.” The reader should notice that the flyer says “preservative-free,” and that the preservative they are referring to is thimerosal, 50 mcg per dose, including 25 mcg of mercury per dose, as much as it ever had. They don’t want people to notice that, but are also aware that the over-65 group is the most likely to react in a short time to the mercury
            with Alzheimer’s, so they deign to allow them to not get the mercury.

            On the back of the flyer, it has a list of Who should get a flu vaccine. Another bulleted list. The first group is “Pregnant women should get a preservative-free vaccine.” (So we see that it is exactly as I said, older people and pregnant women are told to get their mercury-free version.) The next group is “Children younger than 2 years of age.” Notice that it does
            not say that babies should get the mercury-free version, even though they are
            well aware of how often the mercury in vaccines causes autism, seizure disorders, and other conditions.

            https://schnucks.reportsonline.com/ssched/Patient/Advisory

          • FallsAngel

            Big whoop.

        • shay simmons

          Our local supermarket ONLY stocks this mercury-containing version for routine use in flu shots,

          Is this supermarket the only place in Columbia, MO where you can get a flu shot?

          (Also, mercury =/= thimerosal).

          • ciaparker2

            Who cares? I’ve never gotten a flu shot, never will. I’m sure there are oodles of places here which would be glad to sell you a flu vaccine. I haven’t made a survey of them and don’t know how many routinely sell standard, mercury-containing Fluzone. Since Schnucks is so routine and blasé about it, I think it’s likely that most, if not all, stores do the same, but I don’t know. I’d always rather just get the flu. And the fever, if not interfered with by taking Tylenol etc., will go a long way in protecting you from cancer for the subsequent five years.

          • shay simmons

            Then why did you post a comment implying that preservative-free flu shots aren’t available in your area (other than your habitual dishonesty, that is)?

            EDITED TO ADD: citation needed for the flu protecting you from cancer for five years.

          • ciaparker2

            I didn’t imply that. Schnucks is where we shop for non-health food stores stuff, and it’s where I picked up the flyer I described in detail. I showed it to an old boyfriend, and he was shocked, saying But they took all the mercury out of all the vaccines many years ago. No, they didn’t, they took most of it out of the vaccines primarily intended for children, but since the flu vaccine isn’t primarily intended for children, it can contain all the mercury it ever did. Even now when all children over six months old are supposed to get them. Twice the first year, then every year after that, until they no longer remember because of the vaccine mercury screwing up their minds. A. said Now THAT’S something all the news outlets should be informing Americans about.

          • shay simmons

            You sure as hell tried to.

            Mercury =/= thimerosal. Also, your flyer should have informed you that there are separate flu vaccines for children and adults – that’s common knowledge among vaccine administrators such as pharmacists and RNs. It’s also information that you have been given over and over, by Falls Angel among others.

            Where’s the citation for the flu protecting you from cancer for five years?

          • Mike Stevens

            As you say it is very well known that fever can prevent cancer.
            So I always get several vaccine shots each year.
            As everyone knows, these are always accompanied by side effects like fever, and so they serve as a powerful protection against all cancer.
            Go vaccines!

            /sarc.

          • ciaparker2

            What vaccines do you get? I knew you always got a flu vaccine. Haven’t you already gotten all the others?

          • Mike Stevens

            Being on the smallpox acute response team (SMART) I get boosters every month, since I know it hasn’t gone away but just has been renamed as some harmless sounding illness, and I get rabies shots at least weekly as I have to deal with frothing antivax commenters on disqus. Then of course I get Jap B encephalitis and TBE every year, since I don’t ever want to get something that would make me cry constantly, and I throw in canine distemper shots for when I slum it at Age of Autism.

            /sarc^2

          • ciaparker2

            I actually picked up on your sarcasm before reaching the end of your comment. Seriously, I’d be interested in knowing what you get.

          • Mike Stevens

            Flu vax.
            I check Hep B immunity every 5-10 years, but haven’t needed a booster yet, 35 years after my first course.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you. I was just wondering.

          • Ben

            𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔪𝔰𝔱𝔢𝔯

            …. )
            …. (
            .. ()-()
            _(o o)_
            .. /o/

          • JGC

            “But they took all the mercury out of all the vaccines many years ago”

            No one ever put mercury into vaccines, cia. Some multi-dose formulations may incorporate thimerosal as a preservative, but thimerosal and mercury are the same thing to exactly the same extent that table salt and metallic sodium is the same thing (which is to say, not at all).

            “…until they no longer remember because of the vaccine mercury screwing up their minds”

            Citations needed.

          • ciaparker2

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning
            Mercury in compounds such as methyl- or ethylmercury is much more dangerous than elemental mercury. Thimerosal is half ethylmercury by weight. It was present in DPT, the HIb vaccine, the hep-B vaccine, and flu vaccine. Children were routinely given amounts hundreds of times higher than the presumed “safe” dose until it was removed, except for still-dangerous trace amounts, from most vaccines in 2002, more than a decade after its dangers were known and it was removed from most pet vaccines. See book Evidence of Harm. See also the book The Age of Autism.

          • JGC

            “Mercury in compounds such as methyl- or ethylmercury is much more dangerous than elemental mercury.”

            Agreed–your point? The fact that mercuric compounds are more toxic than elemental mercury isn’t support your claim that mercury from routine childhood vaccinations impairs memory or is otherwise harmful.

            “Children were routinely given amounts hundreds of times higher than the presumed “safe” dose until it was removed,”

            Citations needed.

            “except for still-dangerous trace amounts”

            Citations needed.

            “See book Evidence of Harm. See also the book The Age of Autism.”
            To what end? I’m looking for evidence, not anti-vax misinformation.

          • “Agreed–your point? The fact that mercuric compounds are more toxic than elemental mercury isn’t support your claim that mercury from routine childhood vaccinations impairs memory or is otherwise harmful.”

            Nor does it support her point that mercury was in vaccines.

          • Ben

            Equal sign slash equal sign does not equal not equal sign.

            =/= ≠ ≠

        • JGC

          “Standard Fluzone still has 50 mcg of thimerosal per dose, which is 25 mcg of ethylmercury per dose, which is as much as it ever had.”
          And this would be a problem because….? Do you have any evidence that thimerosal or any other component found in Fluzone is harmful at exposure levels achievable by vaccination?

          • ciaparker2
          • JGC

            I asked for evidence, not an anti-vax opinion piece by Dan Olmstead (entry #306 in the Encyclopedia of American Loons) and Mark Blaxill (entry #29).

          • ciaparker2

            I posted information on the studies done on the damage done by thimerosal in vaccines carried out by Mark Noble. Horrendous damage at even the most minute doses. You must have problems with reading comprehension.

          • JGC

            Where did you post that information? I haven’t seen it, and can’t find any such studies by Noble indexed in PubMed.

          • AutismDadd

            For a non-shill, you certainly work like one.

          • JGC

            The citation to the book by Olmstead/Blaxill gave no information on studies on thimerosal in vaccines performed by Mark Noble other than to assert they had been done. As far as I can tell–and I’ve looked pretty hard–that assertion is false.

          • ciaparker2

            “Mark Noble and his colleagues have shown that thimerosal is
            as effective as methylmercury in activating cellular response pathways that
            lead to degradation of cell surface receptors of critical importance in normal
            cell division and survival. Perhaps most importantly, in the context of brain
            development, they found that precursor cells isolated from the developing
            central nervous system are more sensitive to thimerosal and methylmercury than
            are such differentiated cell types as neurons and astrocytes (the major support
            cell in the brain), with sensitivity extending down to exposure levels of 5-10
            parts per billion. (“Redox Modulation of Cellular Function: Cellular and
            Mechanistic Analyses’ Presentation to the Workshop on Autism and the
            Environment: Challenges and Opportunities for Research, Institute of Medicine,
            April 18, 2007)

            These appear likely to be clinically relevant exposure levels, as infant
            monkeys exposed to thimerosal at the levels provided by the infant vaccine
            schedule had brain concentrations of mercury ranging from 10-20 parts per
            billion for prolonged periods after the injections. (Burbacher et al,
            “Comparison of Blood and Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to
            Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal,” 2005)

          • ciaparker2

            A second immediate effect of a potential toxic injury is premature cell death…Numerous studies have shown that thimerosal promotes the programmed death (apoptosis) of neuronal stem cell lines, with several of these showing that mitochondria are involved in the
            process. (ML Humphrey, et al, “Mitochondrial Mediated Thimerosal-Induced
            Apoptosis in a Human Neuroblastoma Cell Line (SK-N-SH),” Neurotoxicology 2005, 26(3): 407-416. Yel, LE Brown, K Su, et al, “Thimerosal Induces Neuronal Cell Apoptosis by Causing Cytochrome and Apoptosis-inducing Factor Release from Mitochondria,” Int J Mol Med, 2005, 16(6):971-7.) Like Noble’s analysis, these studies who that thimerosal has a toxic effect even at extremely low doses, with damage seen at levels even lower than five parts per
            billion. (DK Parran, et al, “Effects of Thimerosal on NGF Signal Transduction and Cell Death in Neuroblastoma Cells,” Toxicol Sci, 2005, 86(1): 132-40 Toxic effects were shown at concentrations of 10-100 nanomolar.

          • ciaparker2

            A third possible immediate effect of
            thimerosal exposure is alterations in signaling in the immune system.
            Vaccination itself is dependent on creating an alteration in cytokine imbalance
            that enhances response to the pathogens of interest. It appears that when
            thimerosal is administered in animal models, however, there is first a
            suppression and then a stimulation of the immune response. (S. Havarinasab et
            al, “Organic Mercury Compounds and Autoimmunity,” Autoimm Rev 2005,
            4(5) 270-5.” In addition, a team led by Isaac Pessah of the MIND Institute
            also demonstrated that both immature and mature dendritic cells (immune cells
            involved in innate immune response) are ‘exquisitely sensitive’ to thimerosal.
            Pessah’s team reported that thimerosal disrupted both redox balance and other
            signaling channels at parts per billion (or ‘nonomolar’) concentration. (S.R.
            Goth et al, “Uncoupling of ATP-Mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated
            Interleukin-6 Secretion in Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal,”
            EnvironHealth Perspect 2006, 114(7):1083-91)

          • ciaparker2

            “A fourth possible outcome of toxic injury is the
            activation of the brain’s own specialized defense system, the neuroglial cells.
            A Johns Hopkins research team that examined the brains of autistic cases after
            death reported that two kinds of these supporting cells, astrocytes (cells that
            support neurons) and microglia (the brain’s immune cells) are activated in
            autism. Although it isn’t yet clear whether this neuroglial activation in
            autism is connected to toxicant exposure, organic mercury is a well-known
            vehicle for activating these cells. In one series of studies on adult monkeys,
            low doses of methylmercury entered the brain, were ‘demethylated'(converted to
            inorganic mercury), and then trapped in the brain where the residual mercury
            activated the microglial cells. The same team recently compared exposures of
            ethylmercury and thimerosal in infant monkeys and showed that the ethylmercury
            in thimerosal was trapped in the brain more rapidly than methylmercury, suggesting
            a potentially larger toxic effect.”

          • ciaparker2

            A fifth effect of thimerosal exposure is that it can also lead to depletion of
            cellular reserves of glutathione, a chemical that is at the center of cellular
            redox state regulation. Glutathione is a critical component of protection
            against oxidative stress and a variety of physiological stressors, including
            such toxins as mercury and is critical in removing mercury from cells. Jill
            James of the U. of Arkansas exposed neuronal stem cells to thimerosal and
            showed that ‘thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione
            depletion.’ ( S J James “Thimerosal Toxicity is Associated with
            Glutathione Depletion: Protection with Glutathione Precursors,”
            Neurotoxicology 2005; 26(1): 1-8.”

            Finally, there is a concern as to whether thimerosal exposure could compromise
            mitochondrial function. Mitochondrial DNA is particularly vulnerable to
            oxidative stress. (F.M. Yakes et al,” Mitochondrial DNA Damage is More
            Extensive and Persists for Longer Than Nuclear DNA Damage in Human Cells
            Following Oxidative Stress,” Proc Natl Acad Sci USA, 1997,
            94(2):514-0.”

          • ciaparker2

            You were saying…?

          • JGC

            Cia, Noble’s presentation “Redox
            Modulation of Cellular Function: Cellular and Mechanistic Analyses’ again looked at redox activation of signaling pathways in cells grown in culture over very long exposure times. The experiments he performed do not model whole organism vaccination and as a result does not support your claims regarding the supposed dangers of exposure to thimerosal as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination.
            As for Burbacher: haven’t we discussed it several times already? Burbacher found no evidence of, nor made any claim that thimerosal is, toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination.

          • AutismDadd

            JGC has Blind Faith Syndrome

      • Ron Roy

        But not aluminum free which is just as bad.

        • FallsAngel

          Just as bad as in no cause for concern at the levels in vaccines.

    • Brian

      The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated so it’s obvious that vaccines don’t cause it.

      Scientists aren’t stupid. They’ve studied this.

      • ciaparker2

        No, they don’t. Cite your evidence. And don’t cite that British one where supposedly autistic people responded to interview questions. If you can answer interview questions, you do not have classic autism the way my daughter does.
        Scientists have been scared into submission to the pharma industry. That being said, thousands of them HAVE published studies proving how vaccines often cause disability, even death. Stupidity has little to do with it. Self-interest has a lot more.

        • Brian

          This topic has been studied to death already. Vaccines have been studied both individually and in combination, by demographic, by vaccine ingredients, by regressive vs traditional autism, and the results are always the same- the unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated so it’s obvious that vaccines don’t cause it. Here are a few examples:

          -Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 children in the UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
          -Makela et al. (2001) studied 500,000 children in Finland showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination -Madsen et al. (2002) studied 500,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination -Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosal in vaccines
          -Verstraeten et al. (2003) studied 125,000 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism and other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines -Andrews et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines
          -DeStefano et al. (2004) studied 2,500 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
          -Smeeth et al. (2004) studied 5000 people in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on vaccination
          -Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
          -Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination
          -Richler et al. (2006) studied 300 people with autism in the U.S. and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination -Uchiyama et al. (2007) studied 900 people with autism in Japan and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination
          -Price et al. (2010) and DeStefano et al. (2013) studied 1000 children in the U.S. and found no difference in either classical or regressive autism rates, or other forms of ASD, based on thimerosal or other ingredients in vaccines
          -Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism
          -Jain et al. (2015) replicated the study with 95,000 people and got the same result
          -Baxter et al. (2015) showed that, when using the same diagnosis criteria, the autism rate was the same 25 years ago as it is today
          -Gadad et al. (2015) showed no difference in autism rates in rhesus monkeys based on vaccination, and their brains were dissected just to make certain. Also, this study was funded by anti-vaccine groups
          -Taylor et al. (2014) performed a meta-analysis (better than double-blind studies!) with 1,250,000 people, showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination

          • ciaparker2

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html

            Verstraeten’s original study showed that autism was MUCH higher in vaccinated children. But the CDC said no, no, we can’t have that, and they cloistered the study. It was retrieved many years later by a request under the Freedom of Information Act. In the meantime, the CDC had persuaded Verstraeten to dilute his numbers and jiggle them until they gave the answer the CDC wanted to see. All of your studies are pharma bilge.

          • Brian

            Look at you squirm!

            It offends you so much that the facts prove you wrong, that you have to desperately lie.
            Not a single study I list was funded or conducted by pharmaceutical companies, and Gadad et al, was even funded by anti-vaccine groups. Verstraeten’s preliminary results were just that- preliminary. Preliminary studies are, by definition, not meant to provide confident results. Even when the studies aren’t preliminary, repeatability and replication is key.
            These studies are repeatable. The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious vaccines don’t cause it.

          • ciaparker2

            I strongly urge the interested reader to look at this site, with many studies showing that vaccines cause autism. This is a summary of the Verstraeten study. He should also read David Kirby’s book Evidence of Harm, and then decide whether he believes us or you (sorry, I’m laughing out loud. Us or you. Hilarious!) I also urge him to read about Simpsonwood, at which the pharma powers conferred, trying to decide how best to hide the inconvenient truth of Verstraeten’s study.

            “Verstraeten et al. 1999 Internal CDC Abstract for the Epidemic Intelligence Service Meeting of 2000 “Increased risk of developmental neurologic impairment after high exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccine in first month of life.”

            This original version of the Verstraeten et al. paper (that was ultimately “watered down” before it was published in final form in
            2003) shows risks of autism at 7.6-fold for children exposed to thimerosal in the first month of life compared to unexposed controls.”

            http://traceamounts.com/scientific-papers-showing-linking-thimerosal-exposure-to-autism/

          • Brian

            Cynthia says “I strongly urge the interested reader to look at this site, with many studies showing that vaccines cause autism. ”

            My challenge to you- find ONE.

            Find just one study, that provides the strongest evidence of a causal relation between vaccines and autism, and then let’s discuss it in detail.

          • ciaparker2
          • Brian

            I repeat my challenge to you. Apparently you didn’t understand it.

            Find ONE.

            Find the one with the strongest evidence of a causal relation, and then let’s discuss it in detail. Posting lists of titles from conspiracy blogs is meaningless, and essentially a gish-gallop.

          • AutismDadd

            OK now provide the repeated studies you claim can be done.

          • shay simmons
          • How do you explain the rest of the world?

          • Von Braun

            So dumb.

            The ↑Phizer PR-bot says it again…

            …and again….

            …and again….

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. Same STUPID question that has no answer. But the whole world is influenced by Big Pharma no matter what a putz like you states in his lies.

          • AutismDadd

            And who paid for these studies?

          • Come on, the year and such is enough to find it on pubmed.

          • AutismDadd

            Brian has to supply it since he claims it

          • Brian has supplied it – all you have to do is enter the info into Pubmed.

          • AutismDadd

            I not only assume it will be junk science, I’m sure of it. Its Brian for God Sake.

          • Claims stand or fall on their own merit.

          • AutismDadd

            LOL

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            Claims stand or fall on their own merit.

            And your claims fall exactly like Bambi on ice.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSh1eLrxiqs

          • Except that you know there’s no evidence that Bambi should stay up.

          • AutismDadd

            So you are Brian too I see

          • Hardly.

          • AutismDadd

            Not as wise as him?

          • AutismDadd

            Then tell us

          • It’s already been told to you, Adadd.

          • AutismDadd

            Then repeat it like you repeat your mantra

        • shay simmons

          That being said, thousands of them HAVE published studies proving how vaccines often cause disability, even death.

          List a few for our enjoyment, why don’t you.

        • kfunk937

          If you can answer interview questions, you do not have classic autism the way my daughter does.

          If you only count what you call classic autism, POOF! Your “autism epidemic” evaporates.

          • ciaparker2

            Our speech therapist, a trained autism advocate, said that a third of autistic children can never speak at all. Another third are like my daughter, low-verbal, and cannot converse at all ever with anyone. The last third are high-functioning, maybe Asperger’s. Gee, the autism rate is now one in forty children in the US. So if you take out the higher functioning, that makes it, what? One in sixty children unable to use language to communicate? Up from one in 3,500 thirty years ago, when a North Dakota study found that the autism rate in 1987 there was three in 10,000? You don’t call that an epidemic? Oh, yeah, of course, now I remember why you don’t!

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html

            http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2965024-3/abstract

        • Cia, I thought there was an autism epidemic? You need people like me to back up your autism epidemic.

          Please read Baxter et al.

        • Mike Stevens

          What is the proportion/prevalence of those with “classic” autism in the population, Cia?

          • ciaparker2

            See above.

          • Mike Stevens

            I don’t see it above, Cia.
            Again, what is the proportion/prevalence of those with “classic” autism in the population?
            Or don’t you have a clue?

          • ciaparker2

            Just got it from my profile. I saw yesterday that the autism rate in London has now hit an all-time high of one in ten. I’ll put up a link later, I don’t have time now. Or the interested reader can google it. The rate in the UK and Scotland are also extremely high, there aren’t enough medical and educational facilities to handle the unprecedented rate, and it’s in the process of breaking our societies. Did you see the official link I put up that Lara sent me, showing that autism rates in Missouri have increased over eleven times in twenty years, and that’s not even counting speech disabilities?

            “Our speech therapist, a trained autism advocate, said that a third of autistic children can never speak at all. Another third are like my daughter, low-verbal, and cannot converse at all ever with anyone. The last third are high-functioning, maybe Asperger’s. Gee, the autism rate is now one in forty children in the US. So if you take out the higher functioning, that makes it, what? One in sixty children unable to use language to communicate? Up from one in 3,500 thirty years ago, when a North Dakota study found that the autism rate in 1987 there was three in 10,000? You don’t call that an epidemic? Oh, yeah, of course, now I remember why you don’t!

            http://www.ageofautism.com/

            http://www.jaacap.com/artic

          • Mike Stevens

            You do realise that ASD isn’t the same as classic Kanner’s autism, I hope?
            How can you possibly think they are the same?

          • AutismDadd

            Explain the difference Mike.

          • ciaparker2

            Children diagnosed with failure to develop language or little ability to use language to communicate have Kanner’s autism, if no other diagnosis exists to explain their failure to develop normally. The third with high-functioning autism or Asperger’s have more ability to use language. Those unable to interact socially in a normal way, but otherwise are able to function and use language, are in the Asperger’s third. Those obsessed with spinning objects or with obsessive-compulsive disorder, but oeherwise able to use language, may be in the Asperger’s third. But it still leaves us with two-thirds of those diagnosed with autism unable to use language to communicate, unable ever to care for themselves independently. And that’s the big problem, isn’t it? Society will have to care for them for life. And the greater tragedy is that pharma madness has destroyed the person they would have been without the vaccine damage. They would have been able to think, read, say funny or interesting things, joke, show compassion for others, work, travel, write, everything that it means to be human, but with the vaccine-inflicted brain damage, are unlikely ever to be able to do these things. So great. In 1987 it was three in 10,000 in the US with autism (see the North Dakota study discussed in Handley’s Autism not really on the rise?) Now it’s about one in sixty American children in the two-thirds with Kanner’s autism. I’m going to have to check out the absolutely gargantuan rates of autism in the UK, continuing to rise every year, and there aren’t even enough clinics to keep up with the huge number of daily diagnoses. The schools both here and there are melting down under the pressure to do something with the growing masses of children unable to get anything out of school programs and often very disruptive when included in class. They have no money to both educate the typical and warehouse the autistic. Because let me tell you, after eleven years of my daughter being in public school here, they are not in possession of one single helpful strategy which has enabled her to learn one single, solitary thing in any subject. And this is supposed to be a state-of-the-art, academically-oriented, city. But as long as it is verboten to recognize that autism is (vaccine-induced) brain damage, they can’t address the problems. One speech therapist who assisted an autism resource specialist in the public school system diagnosed my daughter only as having a social anxiety disorder which prevented her from speaking. ??? She is acquiring more ability to use grammatical structures to construct original sentences, and it is a miracle to behold, from my homeschooling her in English as a Second Language using Cambridge textbooks (for typical children). She has learned a lot from my typing out hundreds of question sheets from the Core Knowledge textbooks K-8, and working with her until she can answer each question out of about fifty per sheet correctly twice. Lara said that that is called error-free learning, and is what they use to rehabilitate stroke victims, which Is what autistic people are, from the vaccine encephalitis. I have to make up dozens of mnemonic devices they way I do when I study foreign languages, but by golly, she learns the material! Belfast: the lads used to steal the bells from church towers and then get away fast. Ulster: the lads used to all stir up trouble. It took a long time to get her to remember that the troubles involved strife between Catholics and Protestants, which ended with Ireland being split into two parts. She learned that Dublin is the capital of Catholic Ireland because I put on The Young Dubliners singing The Foggy Dew every St. Patrick’s Day (although we have very little Irish blood). So I just had to start singing As I walked out one Easter morn…, for her to automatically say Dublin to answer the question. It has been very hard and we have been doing it for many, many years. I listened to Khan Academy lectures on the Internet to take notes of basic chemistry to teach her, and ultimately she was able to answer basic questions about ionic, covalent, and metallic bonds, explaining in one-word answers how they deal with getting the electrons they need. No school would ever have taken the time or made the effort I have put in, but I have seen that many of the things she learns that way she remembers for years. She’s 17 now, still very developmentally-delayed.
            So I don’t know what’s going to happen. These kids could be helped to reconstruct the neural circuits in the language center of their brain damaged or destroyed by the vaccine encephalitis, but at this time, as far as I know, I’m the only one doing this. Language therapy is built on the “chat” method, which the current autism resource specialist (to whom I had explained my ideas) wrote in a group e-mail simply does not work at all to help the autistic learn to use language. But unless these neural circuits are repaired, all efforts at education are a failure, mean nothing.

            So rather than brush off the problem, and try to say that nearly all of autism is mild and high-functioning, shouldn’t a doctor like you display the utmost concern and make every attempt to forestall the autism epidemic? Meaning first of all to take most vaccines off the recommended schedule and they make careful records of the results. NOT push every last one to the hilt. We DO need to think about the question of how many children with severe brain or autoimmune damage from vaccines might be justified by some as being a small or at least acceptable price to pay for saving fifty children a year from dying of chickenpox. A hundred years ago there were ZERO children with autism. Thirty years ago it was one in 3,333. Now in the US it’s one in forty with autism, something like one in sixty with low-functioning Kanner’s autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you don’t think autism represents a spectrum, but it is just a dichotomous condition with 2 polar outcomes – either high functioning “Asperger’s”, or low functioning “Kanner’s”.

            I see. Oh dear.
            Tell me Cia, do you really think the surveys detecting Kanner’s “childhood schizophrenia” 50 years ago were including everything else on the spectrum, including among other things all the cases of PPD-NOS and Asperger’s which we now incorporate into the ASD spectrum as per DSM?

            Can I suggest you read “Neurotribes”, or at least look through this paper:
            http://www.pediatric.theclinics.com/article/S0031-3955(11)00138-6/fulltext

          • And PPD is not the same thing, just to be clear.

            [I mention this solely because it’s one of the eighty-three]

          • Mike Stevens

            Sorry typo – I meant PDD, not PPD.
            Corrected!

          • Not that either of them are the same thing as autism. 😉

          • No. 2/3rds can use language to communicate, Cia, some just need AAC.

          • nichicanilimonada

            This paper using pre-DSM-5 California cohort data (6.5 million children) suggests that whatever cia says will be wrong, if she ever directly responds to your question. Figure 4 shows the increased rate of autism since 1994 was driven by what was then referred to as high-functioning autism by about 5:1. Unfortunately it doesn’t extend beyond 2001. It might be interesting to compare after the DSM-5 expanded the diagnostic criteria and estalished ASD as a spectrum (but not worth the time, money, or reinvention of the wheel):
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3324454/figure/dyr193-F4/

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Not all autistic people are non verbal, you know. Autism is a spectrum.
          .
          Every single one of the autistic people in that interview has autism just like your daughter. They count towards the statistics just the same as your daughter does. In fact, they are the fastest growing group of autistic people, because the children are more likely to be diagnosed than they would be had they been born earlier, and the adults are seeking diagnosis at a later age after wondering why they’ve struggled their whole life
          .
          You cant make statements about the growing autism diagnosis rate without including all autistic people.
          .
          Im also presuming the interview was face to face and in words. Had sign language, or typing/writing the answers down been an option, there would be non verbal autistics saying the same thing. Ive read blogs by some people who have never said a word and cannot live by themselves, yet they can type in the most eloquent way.

    • Mike Stevens

      You know that table salt is “half” chlorine (a toxic gas) and “half” sodium (a dangerous, corrosive reactive metallic element)?

      • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

        You know that table salt is “half” chlorine…(a toxic gas)

        Are you series Mike? Don’t you realize how stupid you are? Two errors in half of a sentence.

        Sodium chloride is 60.7% chlorine by mass, not half.

        …(a toxic gas)…

        Derp! How about not. Sodium chloride has the harmless chloride ion (Cl⁻) and not the diatomic chlorine molecule (Cl—Cl).

        And saying that a solid (NaCl) is “half gas” is double plus stupid.

        • Yes, you’re right, that would be a double plus stupid. How did @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus arrive at the double plus stupid comment? Oh yes, by using reductio ad absurdum on @annedachel:disqus’s logic.

          Yes, the conclusion is absurd.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d611bb1d00f088783536079a4d82bc81ba9c87b25a291f26c1ef64f46cda86a.jpg

        • SciGuy

          He was making absurd statements based on facts to make a point, as has already been explained to you.

          By the way, NaCl is indeed half chlorine by atomic fraction, and Cl is also half of the Cl2 molecule by the same measure. You were the one who assumed a mass fraction.

          Contrast that with the ignorant comment he was poking fun at about thimerosal being “half” mercury, which is factually incorrect. It’s 1/23rd mercury by atomic fraction and less than 1/5th mercury by mass.

          Incidentally, mass fraction is all but meaningless when it comes to chemistry. It’s convenient for batching reactants, but essentially useless for anything else.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            …and less than 1/5th mercury by mass.

            Okay, now you’re just being stupid.

            The atomic mass of Thimerosal (C₉H₉HgNaO₂S) is:
            9C=9(12.01)=108.09
            9H=9(1.01)=9.09
            Hg=(1)200.59=200.59
            Na=(1)22.99=22.99
            2O=2(16)=32
            S=(1)32.07=32.07
            Σ=404.83

            The contribution from the mercury atom is roughly ²⁰⁰ ⁄₄₀₄, and 49.55% more exactly.

            This is very close to half the weight. If you disregard the sodium atom, which is not covalently bound, you get more than half the mass from mercury.

            Contrast that with the ignorant comment he was poking fun at about thimerosal being “half” mercury…

            No, that’s you being ignorant.

            Incidentally, mass fraction is all but meaningless when it comes to chemistry.

            Now you’re just being even stupider. Have you ever heard of mass spectrometry?

          • SciGuy

            I did indeed did fat-finger my spreadsheet calculation for Hg’s mass fraction in thimerosal this morning. Whoops, mea culpa.

            Yes, I have “heard of” MS. I’m even booked to use one at a national lab before the end of the summer. I would call MS a physical technique (well, a host of physical techniques) that is useful for chemists, among many others. Doing chemistry, in my view, means carrying out reactions, which requires understanding of the constituents in atomic/molecular fractions.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            I would call MS a physical technique…

            I think most people would consider it an analytical chemical technique.

            Doing chemistry, in my view, means carrying out reactions…

            Too simplistic.

      • And water is mostly oxygen by weight – I wouldn’t advise breathing it in.

        • shay simmons

          Impossible! Water is H2O so that means it’s hydrogen!

          //s//

          • Yes, you’re being funny but you reminded me of a point. Of course, as we all know, hydrogen is lighter than oxygen hence blimps.

    • Please learn some basic biology. Mercury is not a known neurotoxin – toxins are a specific thing

      • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

        What a joke you are DerpTurtle!!! A lobotomized cretin who stalks this thread spouting nonsense!!! After being corrected dozens of times, you continue with your idiotic misperceptions about chemistry.

        I will post a few quotes by Doctors of Chemistry. In fact, I will makes sure that every quote comes from the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

        Mercury is a potent neurotoxin for humans…

        Mechanisms Regulating Mercury Bioavailability for Methylating Microorganisms in the Aquatic Environment: A Critical Review

        Mercury is a powerful neurotoxin and can bio-accumulate up the food chain.

        Sorbents for mercury capture from fuel gas with application to gasification systems

        • So what living thing produces mercury then? You do know that’s what a toxin is, right?

          Now, it’s possible that it’s a neurotoxicant but that’s a different thing.

          Oh and by the way, this is a biological distinction, not a chemistry one.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            The majority of the world, including professionals, doesn’t define toxin the way you do: http://www.medicalinsider.com/toxicity2.html#inorganic

            It’s like saying, “β-carotene isn’t conjugated because it isn’t bound to sulfate.” This statement misses the point that β-carotene is conjugated in a different sense of the word.

            So Derp, would you consider ethanol a toxicant or a toxin?

          • Medical insider? Please.

            https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=toxin+vs+toxicant&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

            Um, sorry, your link is not to ‘professionals’.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            You dork. You go to GoogleScholar and search for “toxin vs toxicant”, and then link it as if that says something important.

            LOL.

            Why don’t we have a look at what the toxicologists say?

            Thus the plasticiser triorthocresyl phosphate is a neurotoxin with little adverse cutaneous effect. For other toxins, the cutaneous and systemic effects differ.

            Fundamental Toxicology [p. 459]
            Douglas B McGregor

            It is clear that he refers to synthetic molecules as toxins. Throughout the entire book he does this.

            He appears to define a toxin as something which is toxic in relatively small doses. He uses the word “toxicant” predominantly as an adjective.

          • It’s a biological distinction.

            And appeal to authority won’t work.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            So who has the authority to define a word?

            You? Mercury isn’t a toxin because you say it is?

          • Evidence. Evidence. Evidence. That’s all that’s ever been needed.

            The correct appeal to authority would have been…a biologist.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Why? Biologists don’t own the exclusive right to define mercurials.

            When speaking of the definition of toxins, one might think that toxicologists would be the people to ask. After all, the entire discipline is exclusively about studying toxins.

          • We’re not talking about mercurials, right now. We’re talking about toxins vs toxicants.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Well, I’ll use the traditional definition of the word toxin and use the word toxicant as an adjective.

          • A toxin is produced by a living thing.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Not as most people—including toxicologists—use the word.

          • 1)Most people doesn’t tell us anything.
            2)Again, it’s a biological distinction.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            You do realize how disingenuous it is to pretend that a special definition of a word within within a subdiscipline is the only legitimate use of said word?

            To illustrate your phallacy, answer me this: Is this molecule conjugated?
            http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/beta_carotene.gif

          • Phalllacy on the other hand is not a word at all. I don’t think you’re the authority on words.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            It’s my own slang word, and it describes what you’re doing perfectly. Do I need to show you the etymology?

          • In other words, not a word.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            When someone uses a fallacy as they would rubber phallus, I call it a phallacy.

            It’s a homophonous synthesis of words, a portmanteau.

            Is “derp” really a word, DerpTurtle?

          • Provide evidence for your claims first. Derp at least appears in a dictionary – phallacy does not.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Which dictionary?

            Since you are being pedantic, a hypen is not an em dash.

            Learn how to properly typeset Derp.

          • dictionary.com
            Also, learn about other countries.

          • kfunk937

            Also, what is a “hypen”? What is Derp typesetting? Is it anything like linotype?

            Pedants, glass houses and stones, dontcha know.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Not to be taken 100% literally. Here is a modern definition from Wiki:

            Typesetting is the composition of text by means of arranging physical types or the digital equivalents.

            Digital equivalents; the modern analogue. Just imagine: instead of reaching into your box of cast letter blocks (I know you have one), pull-up a browser page with special character HTML codes. This is typesetting—notice the fμcking em dash Karla—in the 21st century.

          • kfunk937
          • ciaparker2

            It’s creative and cute. Why in the world would you criticize it?

          • Why in the world would you imagine that stating neutral facts about comparisons is the same thing as criticising it?

          • ciaparker2

            I love you, Fluffy Puffin!

          • Mike Stevens

            Do you know who he is, Cia?

          • ciaparker2

            No, do you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes.
            http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2017/02/the-fendlesworth-mystery-or-travis-j-schwochert-we-see-you.html
            He’s an unemployed man in Wisconsin with a criminal record, but also pretends he did his biochemistry at university college in Cork.
            https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Travis_Schwochert

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            I don’t have a criminal record αsshole, and I’m not unemployed.

            Nor do I pretend to be a biochemist at Cork.

            You had better stop slandering me Mike.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m reluctant to click on a link that says right up front that it’s associated with Liz Ditz. I don’t want to be hacked by vaccine shills again. I clicked on the second one, and don’t see any proof that Puffin is really Travis or anything incriminating about Travis. It actually occurred to me after I saw your question that it might be Travis, as he’s certainly very clever and well-informed on the chemistry of vaccines and vaccine reactions.

          • shay simmons

            She neither knows nor cares.

          • kfunk937

            Freedictionary 16 medical dictionaries that agree with you, with Farlex offering a secondary definition: “a common misnomer for poison.” My Stedman’s concurs as well, but wasn’t cited.

            Context matters.

          • What does misnomer mean?

            (I’m asking this for the lurkers, not you)

          • kfunk937

            Wrong name. Wrongity wrong. 🙂

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            But ethanol is produced by yeast. This would make it a toxin, yes?

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            And reserving the word toxin exclusively for protein toxins ignores lipopolysaccharide endotoxins, which contain gycans and lipids only.There is not one amino acid in LPS.

          • Who said anything about protein toxins? We’re talking about things produced by a living thing – doesn’t matter what form the production takes.

          • Von Braun

            Who said anything about protein toxins?

            Her links did. Nice to know that you didn’t even bother to click it.

      • AutismDadd

        Sock puppet account Derp? What a fraud.

    • I suspect they omitted the ‘half mercury’ for the same reason that they omitted that 1+1 =3.

      • Ron Roy

        ”The business of vaccines is soon to become a major source of profits
        for the world’s largest pharmaceutical corporations. A press
        release (Business Wire, January 21st 2016) published
        by marketwatch.com says that Technavio, one of the leading technology
        research and advisory companies in the world predicts that
        pharmaceutical corporations who produce vaccines will reach an estimated
        $61 billion in profits by 2020”

        61 billion in profit vs 30 and 155 billion in gross sales BIG BIG difference. And both those numbers.include sports drinks made by Coke and Pepsi and bodybuilding supplements made and sold by hundreds of companies.Nice try though.

    • Jonathan Graham

      thousands of parents claim that their child was healthy and normally developing until they received certain routine vaccinations

      Which would be true even if vaccines could be proven to be unrelated. Right? So, isn’t it a little intellectually dishonest to include that as something you want people to consider before they vaccinate their children? Isn’t that just teaching people the wrong way to analyze data? Thousands of people observe people doing miracles and black magic and UFOs. Do we really want to state that the threshold for taking something seriously is exactly when “thousands” report observing it?

      officials refuse to call for a study to compare the autism rates in fully vaccinated and never vaccinated children

      I suspect the problem is simply that those who don’t consider the extant research sufficiently compelling in the safety department either have trouble articulating the actual outcomes and risk levels they would be comfortable with or don’t realize how being unable to do so is a barrier to actually getting a study together.

      the childhood vaccine schedule has more than tripled since the 1980s without a single study on the cumulative effect of so many shots so soon,

      Well actually unless those children used in pre-licensure studies are completely unvaccinated – thus invalidating your prior point – we are testing each new vaccine against the population at whatever the average level of vaccination is. You can believe that those studies are incorrect or insufficient in some other way but you can’t (without engaging in the sophistry I just described) simultaneously maintain that pre-licensure testing exists, people who are tested are not entirely unvaccinated and no cumulative tests on vaccination exist.

      Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

      Jonathan Graham: Ordinary person who understands just a little more math than you do.

    • JGC

      Actually thimerosal is a just over 4% mercury (only one of the molecule’s 23 atoms is Hg).

      Table salt on the other hand is 50% chlorine, a known poisonous gas. Shouldn’t we be far more concerned about the salt in our soup than the thimerosal in vaccines?

  • Maurinemeleck

    If it weren’t so serious this article would be laughable. Just look who’s talking about fake news.The lies about “vaccines are safe and effective” is just about the most fake news that was ever stated. The lies about Andrew Wakefield equally disturbing. What a great and brilliant doctor he is. Children are injured by vaccines all over the world and many even die from them. The lies are formulated and pushed by drug companies and doctors. See the docu “Vaxxed” about the lies of the CDC. Don’t vaccinate until you educated. Vaccine choice and parental consent. Health choices for every individual.

    • ILoveJellybeans

      He’s not such a brilliant doctor when you consider that his study was not approved by the ethics committee because he couldn’t justify such invasive procedures on the participants in the study (all twelve of them, which is barely a study at all with such a small sample size), but he did it anyway, and he also paid children for blood samples at a birthday party.
      .
      Did you know he was being paid to do the study by an antivax group, and actually he had patented his own version of the measles vaccine, major conflict of interest there, seeing as if his study proved the MMR was unsafe, an alternative like the one he had thought of would be used instead…but I guess he got more money from being the martyr of the antivax movement now.
      .
      Did you also know that the study he did only got the results it did because he manipulated the data. The claims he makes about the children’s health are contradictory to what the children’s own medical records state, and the findings of the children’s bowels were also manipulated, one parent took their kid for a second opinion by another doctor, and there was no measles found in his bowel.
      .
      Ive already seen Vaxxed, its pure propaganda, yet you feel the need to promote it on every single post of yours. Youre no better than a common spambot.
      .
      The other stuff in Vaxxed is equally suspect. Do you know how many African American autistic boys were in the study? Less than ten, small enough that they had to shave a few months off the age range to make it fit. If you have to mess with the data that much to make it fit, it doesn’t fit.

      • Maurinemeleck

        Oh stop asking Did I know?” He’s a friend. Did you know you’re spouting the lies of Brian Deer? That’s such a ridiculous way of pretending you have the right information, Educate yourself and stop copying MSN.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          He’s a friend? So Andrew Wakefield is your friend? Which is why you post on vaccine related threads telling everyone to watch his movie?
          .
          Well that’s a first, isn’t it? Some of the vaccine thread Disqus regulars have suspected that some of the big names are recruiting others to promote their views/products on here, but usually theyre dismissed as being paranoid and having a big ego to think that anyone who disagrees with them must have an ulterior motive.
          .
          So tell me, how do you know Brian Deer is lying, other than that your buddy Wakefield told you?

          • Maurinemeleck

            B rian Deer is a pharma troll just like you.

          • Jazz Let

            Have you any evidence for that accusation, you having just admitted that you are a Wakefield troll your accusation is, to put it mildly, suspicious.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Is that all you have to say?
            So, because someone disagrees with you, they are a “pharma troll” therefore their opinion cannot be trusted…no actual evidence other than that you trust your special friend over anyone else.

          • Maurinemeleck

            Lol. so long

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So long what?
            You really don’t have anything else to say than what your buddy Andy told you, do you?

          • And your evidence that

            1)Brian Deer is a Pharma troll
            AND
            2)That ILoveJellyBeans is a Pharma troll would be….

            What, exactly?

          • AutismDadd

            Trash. Is this what science is?

        • Brian

          You’re uncompromising defense of child abusing scam artists is very appreciated by child abusing scam artists.

        • Brian Deer lied about Andy Wakefraud how, exactly?

          Commence lying about Brian Deer in 3… 2… 1…

          Brian Deer’s 2004 UK investigative report on Wakefraud:
          youtube(com)com/watch?v=7UbL8opM6TM
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbL8opM6TM

          Gee, did you see Andy run away from being questioned? @28:29 Did you notice Andy’s research assistant Nick Chadwick refute that any measles virus was found in the children’s gut samples?:
          “Q – Did you find measles virus in those children?”
          N. Chadwick – No. In no single case did I find measles virus in those children.

          And yet Andy’s whole hypothesis rested on the presumption that live measles virus was to be found in the gut of autistic children causing a “leaky gut” which induced Andy’s invented “autistic enterocolitis” syndrome. But no measles was found laying waste to Andy’s hypothesis but that didn’t stop the scamming Andy Wakefraud from forging ahead with his scam, did it?

      • Judith

        You show your ignorance and just parroting disinformation.

        By measles vaccination I presume you mean:The patent for Transfer
        Factor which is a naturally occurring nutritional supplement that occurs in breast milk, for example, that boosts the immune response. “Whether it worked or not is another question. That’s what we sought to try and find out. It boosts the immune response to an infection like measles. This could not prevent children from getting measles, so it didn’t act like MMR at all. What it did was to help them clear the virus once they became infected. It could never have competed with MMR vaccine. Never, because it did not work in the right way.”

        The patent did state it could possibly be a safer measles vaccine – in patentland everything possible is listed. But the technology could never be used as a true measles vaccine. How could Wakefield compete against the MMR vaccine – not possible and he knew it. It was Deer who latched onto this to make Wakefield look bad.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Ok I was just reading from the patent, where it did mention that it was for both, He still lied about the study results then. No trace of measles was found in the bowels of these children, and the children’s medical records contradicted Wakefield’s claim that all of the children’s health issues started directly after the MMR.
          .
          How could Wakefield compete against the MMR vaccine you ask? By faking a study that said it was dangerous. That would do it.

          • kfunk937

            Judith is lying about the patent too. Wakefraud’s business plan anticipated something like £37 million annually flowing into the company named for his wife, using his transfer factor as a diagnostic test and treatment and vaccine.

            In others words, yet another scam.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            I guess he makes more money now being the antivax martyr though.
            I wonder what happened to the patent, but maybe the product didn’t work.

          • Mike Stevens

            Here is the BMJ expose on the Wakefield money scam:
            http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258.full.print

          • ILoveJellybeans

            The more I read about Wakefield, the worse he turns out to be.

        • sabelmouse

          it’s like talking to a broken record, isn’t it.

          • kfunk937

            it’s like talking to a broken record, isn’t it.

            ^^Irony^^

    • shay simmons

      Pity he wasn’t brilliant enough to hide the money trail from the lawyers who hired him.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/

    • Mike Stevens

      “What a great and brilliant doctor he [Wakefield] is.”

      Are you nuts?
      Wakefield is a self-serving, money-grabbing sleaze bucket, who thinks nothing of deliberately lying and misleading gullible parents, who has been found to have abused autistic children participating in his studies, who has been found guilty of dishonesty and serious professional misconduct, who fabricated trial data to gain $750,000 in legal aid fees, who has had his publications retracted because they were scientifically fraudulent, and who is no longer a practising doctor because his license was stripped by his professional body.
      If that defines a great and brilliant “doctor”, then you are utterly lacking in insight and common sense.

      • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

        .. who thinks nothing of deliberately lying and misleading gullible parents…

        That’s slanderous Mike.

        • Rich M.

          Mr Wakefield could try suing … a-gain.

          • shay simmons

            He probably will just as soon as he convinces enough marks to donate to his legal fund again.

          • Except for the part where he lost a libel case…in England….before we reformed our libel laws.

        • Um, no. Slander is something untrue.

          • Mike Stevens

            And it is spoken, not written.

      • Judith

        You continue to spread lies -along with so many on this witch hunt.
        As Andrew Wakefield explains himself:
        “One of the allegations against me is that I had acted on behalf of lawyers, I was being paid by lawyers to do the Lancet Study. In fact, I was being paid for by a government funded compensation program to act as a medical expert. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the Lancet Study, which was paid for by the National Health Service. They payment from the Legal Aid Board was not to me initially. It was to the medical school to conduct a study, to look for evidence of measles virus in the diseased intestine of these children. That is what it specifically did. This was known to the editor of the Lancet nearly a year before the paper was published. He was sent documents from the lawyer saying, “We are working with Doctor Andy Wakefield on this issue.” He knew, or should have known, but conveniently, he forgot that fact when it came to testify before the General Medical Council under oath. It was only subsequently that it was disclosed that he knew all along.”

        • Mike Stevens

          I said he was being paid by the legal aid fund. That doesn’t make his fraudulent actions less culpable. He put in a claim, via his solicitors, for $750,000 (which if we are to believe him, represents the work done in his spare time over a 2 year period, which was clearly utter nonsense).
          I am pleased you do not dispute any of the facts I stated about him.

        • Judith, why should we take the word of a known liar?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Because everyone knows that the only people who could possibly lie or do anything immoral are the majority who are evil illuminati lizard monsters, and anyone claiming to be alternative is legit and should be trusted without question (sarcasm)

    • “The CDC”

      Okay, how do you explain the rest of the world?

      • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

        Okay, how do you explain the rest of the world?

        You say the same stupid thing every day.

        “How do you explain [insert noun]?”

        Just waiting for your stupid salt graphic. I think you’re just a Russian Propaganda-Bot™.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          There was a point to that post and you missed it.
          .
          The point is, that the CDC is American, and America is not the world. There are studies from many different countries in the world about vaccine safety that come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe, and other countries have a similar vaccination schedule and also promote vaccination as important for health.
          .
          Another reason is that the American healthcare system is different from other countries. The “Big Pharma” conspiracy theory, about how natural cures are withheld from the population because drugs make them more money, and how they want to make people sick to create more customers, is what drives the antivax movement. The antivax movement cannot exist without this theory.
          .
          The problem with this is that in a country like the UK, where healthcare is free at the point of use and funded by taxes, the motivation for promoting unsafe vaccines is removed, in fact, having vaccines that make people sicker is inefficient and would actually be making them lose money.

        • It’s hardly my fault if people can only manage PRATTs.

    • Do you understand how UK libel laws work?

    • Maurine, can you explain the rest of the world?

  • JohnDStone

    This is just essentially hate material. Most of the people defined by this article as “anti-vaxxers” are people who vaccinated their children according to professional advice, and saw adverse reactions and injury – so the propaganda machine has to crush them. The damage of a policy, and the damage of the products must never be acknowledged at any cost to humanity. Anyone who speaks up has to be discredited, reputations ruined, but the machine rolls on and no questions must ever be asked.

    I used to be a Spectator reader – it was an intelligent journal. I cannot believe the puerile but also totalitarian arguments involved such an article.

    John Stone UK Editor, AgeofAutism.com

    • sabelmouse

      most media is bought by industry. the astroturf on the guardian!

    • What happens if we look at home videos of those children? I’m not aware of Hannah Polling’s parents being discredited.

    • No, hating someone based on a behaviour is not the same as hating someone based on some immutable characteristic.

    • How did those people establish that the vaccine injury actually was caused by the vaccine? I trust it is on some basis more robust than the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

  • Amanda Carter

    The idea that at some point the law will force me to put something in my body that I don’t want in my body scares the crap out of me. This author is attempting to impose his will, and the will of Big Pharma, on people. Where does it stop? Will they force me to cut off my breasts because I MIGHT get breast cancer?

    People should have the choice to vaccinate for most things. There are a few, like polio, that we should be vaccinated against. However, measles? They fan the fire of fear over a childhood disease where all 600 kids in my school had it and NOT ONE had any residual problems because of it. That’s the real fake news, scaring people with lies or manipulation data to say what they want it to say and then telling the people who choose to make up their own minds that they are stupid.

    I say the author of this article is nothing but a thug.

    • sabelmouse

      it IS terrifying!
      and totalitarian.

    • Jonathan Graham

      They fan the fire of fear over a childhood disease where all 600 kids in my school had it and NOT ONE had any residual problems because of it

      So you did a two-year follow up on all six-hundred? Impressive.

      • Amanda Carter

        No, I finished high school with them, so that was from 3rd grade when everyone had the measles to 12th grade, a little more than 2 years. Are you incapable of observing the people around you? Good grief, no wonder you’re so easily fooled.

        • Jonathan Graham

          There were 600 people in your third grade class alone?

          Are you incapable of observing the people around you?

          No but I also know it’s unlikely you’re capable of tracking every medical detail of six hundred people. Remember your claim: not one person out of 600 had the slightest, tiniest residual problem – including people who were just about to graduate who you only knew for one year which you tracked somehow.

          • Amanda Carter

            You’re a very scary person online. I can only imagine how much worse you are in person. You’re the guy (metaphorically) burning people at the stake because someone with a clipboard quoted statistics to you. A little cookie cutter follower. Follow the “constructed data” and draw the conclusion they want you too, so you can feel smart. No original thought going on in your head.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You’re the guy (metaphorically) burning people at the stake

            Hmmm let’s compare your verbiage to mine. I commented that it was impressive (and in all honesty I was saying that it’s unlikely) for you to track these six hundred people you appear to claim to have detailed medical histories of.

            Your response was to claim that this made m incapable of observing people around you and that I an easily fooled.

            Note that may comment simply expresses skepticism as to what you are asserting. You are attacking me personally. See the difference?

            What next?

            I again use that most terrible of words “unlikely” and again expressed my skepticism.

            Your response? Again a post which is almost entirely personal attacks.

            because someone with a clipboard quoted statistics to you

            This comment doesn’t even make any sense. Why wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that you did not take 600 detailed medical histories with a 2yr follow up and be able to recall them reflexively.

            Now if what you meant is you don’t personally recall anyone in your school of 600 not getting the measles and furthermore you don’t reacall anyone having injury from measles or it’s sequelae. Then that is an entirely different and exceptionally less impressive statement.

            As it rather weaker evidence than various population studies on measles related outcomes.

          • What is your evidence that all of the data from all the institutions in the world, both public and private, have constructed the data to such an extent as to render the conclusions unrelaible would be what…exactly?

            Also, if being asked for evidence/having your foibles pointed out, albeit rudely, constitutes metaphorically being burned at the stake then I have to wonder what you’d do if you were ever metaphorically burned at the stake

    • FallsAngel

      It’s funny in both senses of the word, which diseases people feel are “must vaccinate” and which are not. Of all the diseases we vaccinate against in this country, polio is the one people are LEAST likely to be exposed to, yet this is one vaccine that many anti-vaxers want for their kids. Measles, OTOH, which there is a higher chance of being exposed to, with all its possible complications, people like to blow off as a “childhood disease” as if it’s nothing more than a cold.

      Out of the 600 kids in your school, roughly 30 had pneumonia from measles. There were probably 150 or so hospitalizations. Who knows how many had hearing/vision/intellectual capacity problems afterward? It was 15 years or so after I had measles and mumps that I found out I had a hearing loss from one of them. I think my mom probably thought I just wasn’t paying attention!

      • FallsAngel

        Let me say that I absolutely believe kids should get polio vaccine. It’s only “an airplane ride away”.

        • Judith

          “For the first time, the number of children paralyzed by mutant strains of the polio vaccine are greater than the number of children paralyzed by polio itself.

          So far in 2017, there have been only six cases of “wild” polio reported anywhere in the world. By “wild,” public health officials mean the disease caused by polio virus found naturally in the environment.

          By contrast, there have been 21 cases of vaccine-derived polio this year. These cases look remarkably similar to regular polio. But laboratory tests show they’re caused by remnants of the oral polio vaccine that have gotten loose in the environment, mutated and regained their ability to paralyze unvaccinated children

          Andino studies how viruses mutate. In a study published in March, he and his colleagues found that the laboratory-weakened virus used in the oral polio vaccine can very rapidly regain its strength if it starts spreading on its own. After a child is vaccinated with live polio virus, the virus replicates inside the child’s intestine and eventually is excreted. In places with poor sanitation, fecal matter can enter the drinking water supply and the virus is able to start spreading from person to person.”

          By the way you realise that the IVP does not prevent you from being infectious to other people.

          • FallsAngel

            Well, I know where you plagiarized that from-NPR. I have read that horrendous article, and think NPR should fire their health reporters. VAPP is not some newly discovered illness. The study the dopey reporter wrote up (probably incorrectly) just describes the process by which this happened.

            This statement is hilarious:

            But laboratory tests show they’re caused by remnants of the oral polio
            vaccine that have gotten loose in the environment, mutated and regained
            their ability to paralyze unvaccinated children

            The ATTENUATED virus is shed in the stool of recently vaccinated kids and if one doesn’t wash their hands after cleaning up stool, and/or if the water supply gets contaminated, it can, on RARE occasions, revert to full-strength and cause polio in a recipient or contact.

            Once there are zero cases of wild polio consistently, we can quit vaccinating altogether. These cases of VAPP are because there is a low level of vaccination in Syria.

            The Nordic countries eliminated polio using IPV. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3664886/

    • Mike Stevens

      “600 kids in my school had it [measles] and NOT ONE had any residual problems because of it.”

      Very doubtful, since we know from large observational studies that around 10% would get pneumonia which sometimes leaves residual lung damage, 10% get otitis media which often causes deafness, and significant numbers of kids still suffer blindness, acute encephalitis, chronic SSPE encephalitis, and death (albeit around one in a 1000 cases). We also know measles depresses cell mediated immunity for 3 year s following infection, increasing the risks of other potentially serious infections.

      I wonder how many IQ points were knocked off those 600 kids. In fact I wonder how many were knocked off following your own episode of measles.

      • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

        So fμcking measles causes reduced IQ now? Wimpy little measles? I fμcking eat measles for breakfast!

        But Mike denies the scientific fact that injected aluminum reduces IQ!

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Yes. Measles can lead to encephalitis, which is obviously not a good thing for the brain.

          • ciaparker2

            Any vaccine can cause vaccine encephalitis, which can cause autism, seizure disorders, ADHD, and myriad learning and behavioral disabilities. And it’s not rare at all. I had it, my brother had it, my daughter had it. And it caused permanent neurological damage in all of us. All vaccines cause an inflammatory reaction, to force the production of the desired antibodies. In many people, the inflammation becomes excessive, and causes stroke-like brain damage. The symptoms of vaccine encephalitis are inconsolable screaming syndrome (for days in the case of me and my daughter, months in that of my brother), excessive somnolence, or blank staring episodes, petit mal seizures. And that’s why, in the wake of the vaccine epidemic which started around 1990, we have seen the autism rate go up from three in 10,000 children in 1987 in the US to at least one in forty now.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            And what are the statistics for encephalitis from the vaccine, compared to encephalitis from measles? Youre more likely to get encephalitis from measles.
            .
            Also, you are wrong about autism too. The reason the autism diagnosis rate as increased is because of a change in the diagnostic criteria, since it was realised that autism is a spectrum, and also underdiagnosed groups such as people with Aspergers (which is not technically a diagnosis in America anymore, they’ve merged all the different names for kinds of autism, into just ASD), and women, are now being diagnosed later on in life, including parents of children who are diagnosed as autistic, but then realise that their child’s traits match their own. My counsellor, who works mostly with autistic people, says that she has met people who were diagnosed at 50 (and my dad is certain Great Grandpa has it, but theres not much point getting a diagnosis when youre 90, is there?)
            .
            The autism rate is actually 1 in 68, not 1 in 40. This doesn’t just mean children though, its mostly pre school aged kids who are diagnosed but some are diagnosed later in life. Someone who was diagnosed at 5, 15 or 25 is a part of every statistic after their diagnosis, but not retroactively to the age where they were 3-5 years.
            .
            I was diagnosed as a teenager. Technically, I was not a part of the statistics from when I was a younger child, because how could they? Nobody even knew I had it, but I was still autistic, I didn’t wake up one morning as a teenager and suddenly become autistic. My dad also realised he was too after that, but that doesn’t mean he caught it from me.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, I counted 19 lies in that single paragraph.
            Maybe that’s a record, but I’d have to check back on your comment history to be sure.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Ethylmercury in the brain is likewise not good.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            The dose makes the poison.
            Thimerosal isn’t pure mercury, its a mercury compound. When it was in some vaccines (but not the MMR), and now, in some versions of the flu shot, the amount in it was tiny. Do you realise that the dose of the entire vaccine, everything in it, is only 0.5ml (0.25 for babies). Do you realise just how small that is? Its not even a spoonful. In fact, maybe you’ve seen the little white plastic medicine spoons, with two sides, a big side (5ml) and a small side (2.5ml), that usually come with children’s medicines. If you put the vaccine dose in one of those spoons, it would be only 10% full (or 20% if you put the standard dose in the little spoon). That includes everything in the vaccine. The amount of thimerosal? Not even a drop, just literally the tiniest little trace, in fact, put the amount of actual thimerosal in a spoon and you probably wouldn’t even see it.
            .
            The amount in vaccines is nothing to worry about, and even if you are worried about it, thimerosal isn’t even in vaccines anymore except for some versions of the flu shot.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Thimerosal isn’t pure mercury…

            Uhh.. Derp! Notice I said “ethylmercury”.

            Did you know that ethylmercury is way more toxic than metallic mercury????

            And then talk about plastic spoons? [Derp] Did you know that just one drop of dimethylmercury can kill a human?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            It isn’t pure ethyl mercury either.
            .
            No, I did not know that, but why are you telling me this? Dimethyl and ethyl are different kinds of mercury. Di usually means two (like carbon dioxide has two molecules of oxygen), and methyl mercury is the more toxic one, the one found in tuna.
            .
            My talk on spoons was an easy way to demonstrate how tiny a dose we are talking about (compared to the stock images antivaxxers like, of a terrified child being jabbed, usually in the wrong place, by a needle the size of their arm containing what looks like a whole cup of some scary coloured liquid). .
            Just out of interest, because I am weird, I actually got one of those spoons and a dropper (I have a tarantula and I use it for filling her water bowl), and I put 0.5ml into one of those spoons, and it really is surprisingly tiny. Its literally a few drops.

          • Dimethyl is not ethyl mercury – and we weren’t talking about you at that point.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            No shiτ moron! The point is that ¹⁄₁₀ of a spoonful does not necessary mean something is harmless.

            Hey Derp, a hyphen does not equal and em dash.

            (—) ≠ (-)

          • Of course it doesn’t. It doesn’t necessarily mean not harmless either. Now that we’ve both established toxicity is dose-dependent….let’s get on with real comparisions.

          • Also, C2H5Hg+ =/= C9H9HgNaO2S

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Of course. Compounds change things dramatically. Just think of what hydrogen and oxygen look like, compared to what happens if you put them together (to make water).

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            This is incomparable. Hydrogen peroxide is only dangerous because it can form a free radical, the hydroxyl radical (·OH)!!!

            But I’ve told you before and I’ll tell you again: Thimerosal is way more toxic than metallic mercury.

            It’s toxic because ethylmercury readily dissociates from the molecule, and ethylmercury is toxic because of the mercury atom attached to it.

            All forms of mercury are relatively toxic, especially the organomercurials.

            Your meme about salt is embarrassingly stupid.

          • Oh, so you were intentionally stating false things (i.e. lying) to make vaccines seem safer when you talked about there being mercury in vaccines, then.

            You are the vax-pusher. And you’re just as bad as anti-vaxxers.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Learn how to make subscripts and superscripts Derp.

          • I changed my name.

          • Mike Stevens

            A pregnant woman sticking to the EPA/FDA guidelines on mercury exposure can ingest 4oz of albacore tuna a day and still not exceed safety levels (95-100% ingested organo mercurials are absorbed systemically).

            That means that during pregnancy, a woman can safely be exposed to 50 times the amount of organomercury compounds than is found in the hard-to-find multidose flu vaccine (the only vaccine containing thimerosal).

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Looks like Mike Stevens is making-up numbers again.

          • ciaparker2

            But mercury is the most dangerous non-radioactive element there is, damaging at doses as small as one part per billion. There IS no safe dose of mercury for anyone, especially not for those of use with impaired detoxification mechanisms.

            “Numerous laboratory studies have shown that thimerosal promotes the programmed cell death (apoptosis) of neuronal stem cell lines, with several of these showing that mitochondria are involved in the process. Like Noble’s analysis, these studies show that thimerosal has a toxic effect even at extremely low doses, with damage seen at levels even lower than five parts per billion. (D.K. Parran et al, “Effects of Thimerosal on NGF Signal Transduction and Cell Death in Neuroblastoma Cells,” Toxicol Sci, 2005, 86(1):132-40.)”
            see more

          • ILoveJellybeans

            No safe dose of mercury? Really? But why is nobody advising everyone giving up tuna, which has more mercury and people generally have more often than flu shots.
            .
            Also, a lot of things kill cells in a laboratory but have no effect in the human body. Its a completely different process.

          • Brian

            “But mercury is the most dangerous non-radioactive element there is”
            1. Arsenic may be considered more dangerous, and there’s plenty of common compounds that are definitely more dangerous.
            2. There’s no elemental mercury in any vaccine, so it’s irrelevant

            “damaging at doses as small as one part per billion”
            PPB is not a dose, it’s a concentration.

            “There IS no safe dose of mercury for anyone”
            False. Learn what NOAEL stands for.

            Please learn some basic chemistry.

          • kfunk937

            FTR, one part per billion is not a dose, it’s a unitless concentration/ratio. It’s meaningless without the information that quantifies exposure.

            It’d be akin to worrying about a medication administered at 10mg/mL without knowing how many milliliters or fractions thereof were given.

          • ciaparker2

            There is no safe dose of mercury. Even the tiniest possible concentration is damaging.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So eating one bite of tuna will damage you?

          • Jonathan Graham

            There is no safe dose of mercury.

            Are you saying that there is some secret lab where they are currently testing weaker and weaker dilutions of mercury (and/or thiomersal) for all forms of damage? or are you claiming that ALL concentrations of mercury have already been tested?

            Or what are you claiming here exactly?

          • Can you name one vaccine with mercury in it, Cia? Remember that mercury is an element.

          • ciaparker2

            Answered here. About half of injected flu vaccines still have as much mercury as they ever did, meaning 50 mcg of thimerosal per dose, with 25 mcg of ethylmercury in it. If you’re going to do your song and dance about mercury when part of a compound like methylmercury or ethymercury being totally different from elemental mercury and not dangerous at all, I would state the obvious, but am afraid that it would be censored for obscenity appropriate for someone anxious to severely poison the entire world as long as he gets what’s coming to him.

            http://traceamounts.com/ten-lies-told-about-mercury-in-vaccines/

          • ciaparker2

            I just saw this, it’s new today. On how dangerous mercury in thimerosal is.

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/07/offit-and-critics-part-five.html#more

          • Cia, you made the claim. You name one vaccine with elemental mercury in it.

          • ciaparker2

            What’s your point? That’s like saying “prove that vaccines have strychnine in them. If they don’t, that proves they’re safe. Who cares about cyanide, etc.?” Vaccines have never had elemental mercury in them. Or maybe they have, but that was an experiment quickly given up. The important point is that when mercury compounds like methylmercury and ethylmercury enter the human or animal body by consumption, injection, or rubbing on the skin, they are very dangerous and cause symptoms of mercury toxicity.

          • Cia, your point was that vaccines have mercury in them.

            ” That’s like saying “prove that vaccines have strychnine in them. If they don’t, that proves they’re safe. Who cares about cyanide, etc.?” No, that’s like asking you to back up your claim.

            “Vaccines have never had elemental mercury in them. Or maybe they have, but that was an experiment quickly given up. ”

            1)If they never have, then why did you say they have?
            2)If it was an experiment quickly given up then vaccines don’t have elemental mercury in them.

            “The important point is that when mercury compounds like methylmercury and ethylmercury enter the human or animal body by consumption, injection, or rubbing on the skin, they are very dangerous and cause symptoms of mercury toxicity.”

            The important point is that you back up your claims. What is your evidence that anything in vaccines are dangerous and cause symptoms of mercury toxicity at exposure levels achievable by mercury toxicity? Mind, I expect symptoms of Pink’s Disease, not things that vaguely overlap.

            But compounds vs elements aren’t the same.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f26dc98ccad36c749f93da93c5722f4f5c603ad688f0370a0559948210526fa1.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/64cbf6d97c5ce2473703326b700106be225ff139469c1f3c867e826dded98474.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            On the mercury damage caused by thimerosal-containing vaccines:

            http://traceamounts.com/ten-lies-told-about-mercury-in-vaccines/

            https://vactruth.com/2011/04/07/thimerosal-from-the-1930s-to-2011/

            https://www.vaccinationnews.org/20110314ThimerosalContainingVaccines-I-InTheDarkYazbakFE
            The article by Dr. Yazbak is the first of a three-part series, with links to the other two parts in the article.

          • Cia, Evidence. Appeal to authority won’t work.

            But seriously, which vaccines contain elemental mercury?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/39fcefb1bcf44f31f2e54ed8aafe241a3f3be32b4fe7cf6b100644a6e7e3c0d1.png

          • ciaparker2

            Are you sane? Just wondering…

          • Cia, I’ll answer that when you can explain properly what my sanity or lackthereof has to do with your claims that you made yourself.

            Which vaccines contain elemental mercury?

          • ciaparker2

            I already answered that. You appear just to want to make me waste as much time as possible. What the hell, you get paid for it.

          • What is your evidence I get paid for it?

          • FallsAngel

            You know, cia, the “shill” accusation means you have absolutely no facts behind you.

          • shay simmons
          • Mike Stevens

            Adding to which, I wonder why Cia thinks vaccine “mercury” is so lethal/damaging to children and adults when the permitted exposure levels to methylmercury (which bioaccumulates more than does ethylmercury) from other sources greatly exceeds the levels reached with vaccination.

          • Back to the point, Cia. Name one vaccine with elemental mercury in it.

          • So that would be a big fat ‘No, I can’t.” You should have thought of that prior to making the claim.

          • FallsAngel

            Lying again, cia. It’s about 71%. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxsupply.htm

        • And yet you are scared of the sissy version.

        • So, what does it say that you’re scared of wimpy little measles’ even punier little brother then?

      • ciaparker2

        No one I ever knew my age or older had residual problems from measles, and we ALL had it as children. You didn’t mention that measles pneumonia is nearly always viral and self-limiting, and can usually be treated with antibiotics when it is bacterial. Yes, one in twenty got measles pneumonia, but it was rarely serious or untreatable if it were bacterial. Ear infections are relatively common with measles, but usually are no more serious than ordinary ear infections, and are treated the same way. If you give vitamin A, you will prevent both conjunctivitis and all kinds of eye damage. SSPE was extremely rare until recently, and can occasionally be caused by the vaccine as well as the disease. Recently the rate has gone up a lot in babies, who used to be protected from measles at that time of their lives because their mothers had natural immunity and protected them with placental immunity and breast feeding. Measles does NOT depress immunity for three years after the illness (want the link to the Aaby study again?) It DOES depress the immune system much more than is usual, but for only two or three weeks after the day the rash appears. It is very important that measles patients stay quiet at home, protected from germs, for that entire period of time, even after they have apparently completely recovered. Hitler’s little brother Edmond (I think) died of diphtheria which took hold in the days he was recovering from measles: he did not die of measles as is so often reported. He may or may not have died of the diphtheria if his immune system were not temporarily (permanently, I guess, as it turned out) suppressed by the measles. In 1960, mortality from measles in the US was less than one in 10,000 cases. In the UK in the ’80s it was one or two in every 10,000 cases. In Europe five years ago, it was three in 10,000 cases. It is one in ten in malnourished populations in Africa. Did you factor in millions of the malnourished and immunocompromised to reach a figure of one in 1,000 measles cases dying?

        Now, how many IQ points do you need to knock off for the MMR causing encephalitic brain damage in so many?

        I bought a t-shirt with the bee and Stay strong our kid, although I don’t understand the slogan. Still turning it over. I spent days trying to figure out if there were a secret meaning behind Don’t look back in anger, if maybe everyone understood that it really meant Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrivé. I hope it’s that I don’t understand the cultural code? I’m reading Douglas Murray’s The Strange Death of Europe now, boy, now THERE’S an eloquent firebrand for you!

        • FallsAngel

          What a Gish-gallop! Making up for lost time, cia?

          You didn’t mention that measles pneumonia is nearly always viral and
          self-limiting, and can usually be treated with antibiotics when it is
          bacterial.

          That’s because it’s untrue. In fact, measles pneumonia is the leading cause of DEATH from measles.

          Ear infections are relatively common with measles, but usually are no
          more serious than ordinary ear infections, and are treated the same way.

          Again, untrue. These ear infections are the cause of the cases of hearing loss from measles.

          If you give vitamin A, you will prevent both conjunctivitis and all kinds of eye damage.

          Untrue. Vitamin A will HELP prevent blindness in kids who are Vitamin A deficient.

          SSPE was extremely rare until recently, and can occasionally be caused by the vaccine as well as the disease.

          Measles vaccine does not cause SSPE.
          http://www.encephalitis.info/images/iPdf/Resources/FactSheets/fs043MeaslesMumps.pdf

          Recently the rate has gone up a lot in babies, who used to be protected
          from measles at that time of their lives because their mothers had
          natural immunity and protected them with placental immunity and breast
          feeding.

          You know darn well that measles immunity is passed on to infants of vaccinated moms as well; infants of both groups of moms lose immunity fairly soon, about 3-5 months, and that essentially no immunity is passed through breast milk.

          It is very important that measles patients stay quiet at home, protected
          from germs, for that entire period of time, even after they have
          apparently completely recovered.

          Old wives’ tales, a way to blame the parent.

          OK, I’m exhausted. Someone else can take the Gish-gallop from here.

        • Mike Stevens

          Just to address your claim about immunosuppression induced by measles; this is significant, and results in an increase in other infections, compromising health. It lasts for 2-3 years following a measles attack.
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19203113/
          https://wws.princeton.edu/system/files/research/documents/Grenfell_Long-term%20Measles-induced%20Immunomodulation%20Increases%20Overall%20Childhood%20Infectious%20Disease%20Mortality.pdf

          • ciaparker2

            Here’s the Aaby study, in which he wished to determine if it were true, as was often claimed, that natural measles suppressed immune function for several years. He found that it did NOT, but rather that having natural measles DECREASED deaths in these children in the subsequent four years. If your thesis were correct, they would have INCREASED. But it is not correct, just what vaccine pushers and their minions (some of whom you cited) would have us believe, for obvious reasons. Natural measles greatly IMPROVES immune function, resulting in better overall health and an eventual steep reduction in many skin and bone diseases, most cancers, and even heart attacks and strokes. Aaby found low mortality after mild measles infection in Africa: in the well-nourished developed world all measles has very low mortality and many benefits, as I cited last night.

            “Aaby
            Low mortality after mild measles infection compared in uninfected children in
            rural West Africa, Vaccine 2002; 21 (1-2) 120-6.

            It has been assumed that measles infection may be
            associated with persistent immune suppression and long-term excess mortality.
            However, few community studies of mortality after measles infection have been
            carried out. We examined long-term mortality for measles cases, sub-clinical
            measles cases, and uninfected contacts after an epidemic in rural Senegal. The
            study was carried out in Niakhar, a rural area of Senegal. Index cases of
            measles were identified and children less than 7 years of age exposed to
            measles in the same compound had acute and convalescent blood samples
            collected. Clinically diagnosed measles cases were serologically confirmed. …However,
            uninfected children without clinical symptoms and change in antibody level had
            higher initial measles specific IgG antibody levels and less intensive exposure
            to the index case. No index or secondary case of measles died in the acute
            phase of infection nor did any of the children exposed to measles die in the
            first 2 months after exposure. Exposed children developing clinical measles had
            lower age-adjusted mortality over the next 4 years than exposed children who
            did not develop clinical measles (P<0.05). Sub-clinical measles cases tended
            to have low mortality and compared with uninfected children, exposed children
            with clinical or sub-clinical measles had lower age-adjusted mortality
            (mortality ratio (MR)=0.20 (0.06-0.74)). Controlling for background factors had
            no impact of the estimates. When measles infection is mild, clinical measles
            has no long-term excess mortality and may be associated with better overall
            survival than no clinical measles infection. Sub-clinical measles is common among
            immunised children and is not associated with excess mortality."

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s not my “thesis” that measles causes severe immunosuppression which is prolonged, Cia.
            It is not even a “thesis”, but a scientific fact. Don’t take my word for it, take the words of these hundreds of medical researchers…
            https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&site=&source=hp&ei=IblWWbHAFJDZwQKAzKOQDQ&q=measles+immunosuppression&oq=measles+immunosuppression&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.3..0j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1.3219.9513.0.10474.26.26.0.7.7.0.148.2704.11j15.26.0….0…1.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.25.2089.0..46j0i131k1j0i46k1.ZCcPUEDCC30

        • shay simmons

          And here comes Parker again with her “if it didn’t happen to me or anyone I know, it didn’t happen” argument again.

          • ciaparker2

            If I had meant it didn’t happen to anyone, I would have said so. It is true that everyone I have ever known my age or older had natural measles as a child, including me. If it were that dangerous a disease, you would have expected many of us to have sustained permanent injury from having had measles, but none of the thousands of people in that group that I have known did. If it were true that measles suppresses immune function for three years after measles, then you would have thought that all of us would be familiar with such cases. Healthy as a horse before, sickly afterwards. In reality, as Dr. Aaby found in his Senegal study, measles does NOT suppress immune function for three years (only for three weeks). In fact, it DECREASES mortality because it IMPROVES overall immune function, measles being a superb learning experience for the immune system. Shills often say that because so many died of measles, we forget how many were severely damaged by measles. Except that we have mortality figures for all developed countries going back at least a hundred years, longer than that in some countries. Mortality from measles was high a hundred years ago, but measles evolved to become much less dangerous, until by the ’50s it was considered a universal, relatively mild and ultimately inconsequential childhood disease. Dr. Alexander Langmuir reported in 1960 that in children between three and ten, mortality was less than one in 10,000 cases: for babies in the first year it was a high as four in 10,000 cases, but it was rare in that group because babies born to mothers with natural measles antibodies, 99% of them then, were protected by placental immunity and breast feeding.

          • shay simmons

            And you have followed up on every single one? How dedicated of you.

            Btw, we keep pointing out to you that a) mortality is not morbidity and b) if babies did get that kind of placental protection how come they came down with the measles?

          • ciaparker2

            Babies during the months when the placental immunity from their mothers who had had natural measles was in effect didn’t get measles. That’s why measles used to be so rare among babies.

            Any ill effects from measles would have shown up within a short time of having had measles. I knew the people I referred to after this time had passed.

            You need to explain what you mean by mortality being different from being sick (morbidity). In what way have I confused them?

        • FallsAngel

          I do not know where my response to this went. It just disappeared in cyberspace, I guess. I’m not going to all that trouble again, but I’ll say this about your Gish-gallop: It’s a bunch of lies. Lies you’ve posted before. The most common cause of death from measles-related complications is pneumonia. It’s not mild, benign, or any other word you can dig up. Ear infections can cause deafness. I did not know I had a hearing loss from either measles or mumps until about 15 years after I had these diseases when I had my hearing tested for a job. 10% of mealses patients, that is, 400,000/year pre-vaccine, got an ear infection. That’s not negligible.

          Your “care” for measles is nothing but woo.

          To answer your question, far fewer than IQ points you need to knowck off for measles disease encephalitis.

          And you knew all this. More’s the pity.

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, the most common cause of measles deaths is measles pneumonia. But it is true that it is usually viral and relatively mild, and resolves without treatment. Sometimes it is bacterial and should be treated with antibiotics. Most of the children who died of measles in the US outbreak in 1989 died of untreated bacterial pneumonia. Occasionally it cannot be treated with antibiotics, giant-cell pneumonia, especially in those already immunocompromised, as was the case for the only death in the Swansea outbreak several years ago. One severely immunocompromised asthmatic, alcoholic adult patient died of measles, but no one was sure for weeks that he had had measles, it was that unusual a case. And he was turned away by a doctor when he sought treatment the day of his death.

            Getting an ear infection does not usually result in deafness, measles or no measles. Now you need to give a citation for how many of these cases of ear infection permanently lost their hearing as a result. You people phrase things very cagily. As when you say in horror, Measles is EXTREMELY contagious. Yes, it is, but it is a beneficial disease for well-nourished, healthy children to get, and is VERY rarely dangerous. Being contagious is NOT the same as being dangerous.

            Vaccine mercury can cause loss of hearing. I became deaf in my left ear two years ago, I think as part of my ongoing mercury chelation experience. I have mobilized too much of it. I had measles, and it did not cause deafness: I had excellent hearing until two years ago. Again, you need to provide evidence and proof. Vaccine mercury may well have had unfortunate effects in you as well as me and everyone in my family. I know that Mike’s sister lost the hearing in one ear after measles, I’m certainly not saying that it does not happen, but it’s unusual. Again, measles patients should stay in bed, drink as much as they can, take vitamin A, and not take any fever reducers. And then they’ll sail through measles and enjoy the lifelong benefits.

          • FallsAngel

            All right cia, is this the point where I can say “you idiot”? There is no thimerosal in measles vaccine and there never was! It would freaking kill the live viruses!

            The leading cause of unilateral sensorineural deafness is mumps disease! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3767776 Now I realize I’m talking about mumps, not measles, but measles otitis can cause deafness too. Since you’re so all-fired sure it doesn’t, you post some links, from credible sources. I cannot find any sources that gives numbers, just many sources that say that measles can cause hearing loss. Among regular posters, there are Mike’s sister, shay’s brother (who needs hearing aids) and me who have some hearing loss from disease, just from a random group of posters. IT’S NOT RARE!

            And that BS about “sail through” just grinds my gears! Lurkers, this person has ZERO health/science medical background! She does not know what she’s talking about, and that makes her dangerous!

          • ciaparker2

            Of course there was no thimerosal in the measles vaccine. Did you even get it? You’re older than I am and got both natural measles and mumps, probably rubella too? I had rubella too. I meant that you had had the mercury-containing DPT series, as I did, and it caused multiple sclerosis and permanent ongoing mercury toxicity in me. The one which paralyzed both my arms for several days when I was nineteen was my ninth. The first caused vaccine encephalitis as well as mercury poisoning, and I screamed for several days after getting it at three months old.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s hogwash and you know it, cia.

          • shay simmons

            . But it is true that it is usually viral and relatively mild, and resolves without treatment.

            Except for SSPE and the three year immune suppression, but you don’t care about that.

          • FallsAngel

            Those aren’t the only exceptions. Measles pneumonia is the leading cause of death from measles.

          • shay simmons

            Parker’s already made her position on measles-related deaths known.

          • ciaparker2

            I urge parents to inform themselves and decide which risk they’d rather take. Even with an 8 in 100,000 chance of SSPE, I’d rather take my chances with natural measles, which does NOT suppress immune function for three years. The risk of SSPE in young babies is much higher than that these days, the result of virtually no women having natural measles antibodies with which to protect their babies in their first year, when very few babies used to get it.
            “Among people who contracted measles during the resurgence in the
            United States in 1989 to 1991, 4 to 11 out of every 100,000 were estimated to
            be at risk for developing SSPE. The risk of developing SSPE may be higher for a
            person who gets measles before they are two years of age. For more information,
            see Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis
            (SSPE): MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia.”

            https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

            “It has been assumed that measles infection may be associated with persistent
            immune suppression and long-term excess mortality. However, few community
            studies of mortality after measles infection have been carried out. We examined
            long-term mortality for measles cases, sub-clinical measles cases, and
            uninfected contacts after an epidemic in rural Senegal.,,,

            No index or secondary case of measles died in the acute phase of infection nor did
            any of the children exposed to measles die in the first 2 months after
            exposure. Exposed children developing clinical measles had lower age-adjusted
            mortality over the next 4 years than exposed children who did not develop
            clinical measles (P<0.05). Sub-clinical measles cases tended to have low
            mortality and compared with uninfected children, exposed children with clinical
            or sub-clinical measles had lower age-adjusted mortality (mortality ratio
            (MR)=0.20 (0.06-0.74)). Controlling for background factors had no impact of the
            estimates. When measles infection is mild, clinical measles has no long-term
            excess mortality and may be associated with better overall survival than no
            clinical measles infection. Sub-clinical measles is common among immunised
            children and is not associated with excess mortality."

            Aaby
            Low mortality after mild measles infection compared in uninfected children in
            rural West Africa, Vaccine 2002; 21 (1-2) 120-6.

          • shay simmons

            You post cherry picked and incorrect information, in spite of being corrected and provided with more current research multiple times. You are a disease promoter.

          • ciaparker2

            Current research is largely pharma-funded. The childhood diseases like measles, mumps, rubella (except for fetuses), and chickenpox are extremely beneficial, therefore, yes, they are good to get. Pertussis is good to get past early infancy if you haven’t had the vaccine, so you can get permanent immunity. Hep-A is mild in children and most adults (I had it as an adult), and gives permanent immunity, so it’s good to get too. Flu is good to get: you get immunity to those strains which will stand you in good stead even in future strains, and having fever with flu gives you substantial cancer protection for five years afterwards. HPV is usually good to just get and get over, with immunity to the strain you got. I would recommend the DT series after two, the HIb series after four months only for babies between 6 and 18 months who are in daycare and not breast fed, and the polio series if polio were to come back here. Every parent must research all the diseases and vaccines and decide according to their own child and circumstances. Many diseases are good to just get naturally. Diphtheria, polio, tetanus, and clinical cases of meningitis are not good to get: thence my vaccine recommendations. In my opinion, pneumococcal meningitis was not deadly enough to justify getting the vaccine, and meningococcal meningitis, while horrifying, is very rare, while the vaccines for them are often very dangerous. This is called doing a risk/benefit analysis, which everyone must do, and by no means just let the doctor make their decisions for them.

          • shay simmons

            Citations needed for all of the above.

          • FallsAngel

            Please lurkers, do not believe this tripe! To take just one piece of this ridiculous Gish-gallop, there is a major outbreak of Hepatitis A in San Diego County right now; 196 cases, 142 hospitalizations, and FOUR deaths, making a death rate of 2%.
            http://www.kpbs.org/news/2017/jun/28/number-hepatitis-cases-san-diego-county-continue-r/

      • Amanda Carter

        Gee, check my educational creds, their better than yours and I finished grad school in Japan. Japanese is my fifth language. So Mike – shoot yourself up with all the vaccines you can get a hold of. Just don’t force them on me or mine. My immune system works just fine on it’s own.

        • Mike Stevens

          “Gee, check my educational creds, their [sic] better than yours and I finished grad school in Japan.”

          Where can I check your educational creds exactly, Amanda?
          (I presume from the above that English language was not one of them).
          And where have I detailed mine for comparison?

        • 1)Arguments stand or fall on their own merits as a function of whether the evidence supports them. Who is making the argument is irrelevant.
          2)So you know five languages. That’s not anything to do with immunology, epidemiology, biology, chemistry, microbiology, maths, or…any of the relevant subjects.
          3)Who’s forcing? Actual force, please, not mere coercion at worst.
          4)Why are you scared of weak, dead, or pieces of pathogen if your immune system works fine?

    • I just want to be clear:

      Exercising freedom of speech makes people thugs?

  • Judith

    Dr William Thompson, CDC scientist who works for the CDC had this to say:
    “I regret that my co-authors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article,” Thompson said in a statement sent to CNN by his lawyer. “I have had many discussions with Dr. Brian Hooker over the last 10 months regarding studies the CDC has carried out regarding vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes, including autism spectrum disorders. I share his belief that CDC decision-making and analyses should be transparent.”

    He further stated that he believed that mercury in vaccines (still in the flu vaccine and recommended for pregnant women) causes tics.

    You further vilify Andrew Wakefield you wrote “the research was unethical and rife with conflicts of interest” yet you fail to mention that the person that retracted the study, Sir Crispin Davis, was making £70,000/annually in a non-executive director position on the board of UK MMR makers GlaxoSmithKline. You also fail to mention that the “investigation” was funded by The Sunday Times whose owner at the time, Rupert Murdoch’s son James, was making £70,000/annually in a non-executive director position on the board of UK MMR makers GlaxoSmithKline. I note that you also fail to mention that in the 1998 press conference Andrew Wakefield recommended using the monovalent measles vaccine option that had a safety record dating back to the late 60s, so he actually recommended vaccinating against measles. Unless you’re going to tell us that Andrew Wakefield was psychic, why don’t you blame the NHS for removing said option from the schedule over six months later at the request. You also fail to mention that Dr John Walker Smith who worked with Wakefield in the same capacity was exonerated of all charges
    The GMC proceeding was a multi-year, multi-million dollar prosecution against Drs. Wakefield, Walker-Smith, and Murch. It related to a controversial 1998 study published in The Lancet suggesting a possible link between autism, the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and bowel disease. Based on the GMC prosecution, both Drs. Walker-Smith and Wakefield lost their licenses to practice and the Lancet article was officially retracted. The GMC alleged that the physician-authors had failed to obtain necessary ethical clearances and that they had subjected the twelve children in the study to unnecessary medical procedures.

    Justice Mitting, reviewing Dr. Walker-Smith’s appeal in the High Court of Justice, Queen’s Bench Division, Administrative Court, found that the GMC’s conclusions were “based on inadequate and superficial reasoning” and that “the finding of serious professional misconduct and the sanction of erasure are both quashed.”

    • Jonathan Graham

      I regret that my co-authors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article,

      Except that we know, from Hooker’s reanalysis that the one race correlation is an artifact. Right?

      • Brooke Dunne

        What does that mean?

      • Judith

        It was William Thompson himself who said “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.” Why do you keep leaving that bit out. Thompson still works for the CDC and he has never retracted that fact.

        • Jazz Let

          You missed out the bit about it was African American males who received the vaccines later than scheduled who showed an increased risk of autism if you didn’t apply the appropriate confounders

          In other words African American males vaccinated on schedule did not have an ncreased risk, so you should be advising they be get vaccinated according to the schedule.

          • Judith

            So you are saying that African American babies vaccinated before a certain date do have increased risk? Exactly what Thompson claimed.

          • FallsAngel

            No, she said nothing of the sort. Quit twisting things around, Judith. And Thompson said AA kids vaccinated LATE were at higher risk, on the basis of about 7 kids.

          • Jazz Let

            I said exactly the reverse, do you often distort what people say to mean exactly the opposite? It’s dishonest.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Judith, out of curiosity. Is there anything we can say to you. Any evidence we can show you that counters specific (implicit or explicit) claims of yours which will stop you from repeating them? I’m just asking.

            For example if you read Hooker’s paper. You would see that the RR’s go UP with each age cohort. So Hooker’s paper – if you believe it – refutes what you claim is “exactly what Thompson claimed”.

            18 months 1.24
            24 months 1.47
            36 months 2.30*

            Now only one of those is statistically significant but clearly if there is a true correlation it can’t be decreasing with age.

            So do you now agree that “too many, too soon” is a flawed statement since if we believe this study the relationship that actually moves in the other direction?

          • Jazz Let

            You haven’t explained why you deliberately twisted what I said to say I said the opposite of what I actually said. Why would you do that?

          • Vaccinated after a certain age, Judith.

          • Plus, if we’re trying to avoid autism, we really really don’t want mothers who are carrying AA males to be exposed to rubella if at all possible.

        • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

          Why do you keep leaving that bit out.

          You brought up Thompson’s statement about statistically significant information. I just pointed out that Hooker’s re-analysis, which Thompson helped him with rather makes the argument that Thompson’s assertion was wrong. Which makes all that other stuff you mention kind of moot. Right?

          I mean even if everyone in the CDC lies at the drop of the hat, performs animal sacrifice and alters every outcome of every study it doesn’t change the fact that Hooker couldn’t really make Thompson’s argument with the same data Thompson had even when Thompson was helping him. Right?

          • Even if everyone in the CDC lies at the drop of the hat….thank goodness for the fact that there are other countries in the world?

        • Brian

          It’s not left out, but considering it’s been investigated, analyzed, confirmed and reconfirmed, found to be caused by confounders and Hooker’s dismal attempts at statistics, then it would be stupid and deceptive to repeat it.

          Remember when, after the Boston Marathon bombing, some news outlets started speculating about the perpetrators and even disseminated photographs of not-the-bombers? Well, you’re trying to do the same thing, but the difference being you’re doing it years after all the facts have come out but you’re still clinging to false speculations.

          • Judith

            You keep talking about Hooker – The scientist currently employed at the CDC Dr William Thompson has not refuted what he said below. If he was wrong why hasn’t he or the CDC made a statement to that effect.

            “At the bottom of Table 7 it also shows that for the non-birth certificate sample the adjusted race effect statistical significance was huge. All the authors and I met and decided sometime between August and September ’02 not to report any race effects for the paper. Sometime soon after the meeting (in which) we decided to exclude reporting any race effects, the co-authors scheduled a meeting to destroy documents related to the study. The remaining four co-authors all met and brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all the hard copy documents that we had thought we should discard and put them in a huge garbage can. However, because I assumed it was illegal and would violate both FOIA and DOJ requests, I kept hard copies of all documents in my office and I retained all associated computer files. I believe we intentionally withheld controversial findings from the final draft of the Pediatrics paper.”

            Dr Thompson statement, read into congressional record 7-29-2015

          • FallsAngel

            That is the absolute craziest bunch of hyperbole of this whole sordid tale. It sounds like they met and threw in hard copy of stuff that was (gasp) backed up by computer! My take on this is that Thompson, who was stupid enough not to know he was being recorded (which kind of negates your throwing around the term “Dr.” Thompson as if that means he’s so intelligent), was being entertaining. And the Good Doctor did not personally appear to read that stuff into the congressional record.

            BTW, people have read “Mary Had a Little Lamb”, and other such nonsense into the congressional record during filibusters. It’s not particularly significant. I’d give you the benefit of the doubt on that last point as you’re from Australia, but you’re such a lying liar I’m not going to.

          • Can you explain the rest of the world, Judith?

          • Brian

            Well Judith, this is the seventh time you’ve repeated this quote.

            It’s also the seventh time you’ve deceptively left off the line “All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today.”

            Will you ever stop lying?

    • FallsAngel

      “mercury in vaccines (still in the flu vaccine and recommended for pregnant women)”

      Lie, Judith, lie! There’s a remote possibility that a pregnant woman will get a flu shot with THIMEROSAL, not mercury, in it, but only 30% of US flu vaccine is in multidose vials that contain the preservative.

      • And the 25 µg of Hg in the multi-dose flu shot, if injected all at once as an IV bolus will mix with mommy’s 4 liters of blood to produce an Hg concentration of 0.006 part per million.
        That 0.006 ppm has to
        – go to mommy’s brain and deposit and mess her up
        – go through mommy’s liver and kidneys and get excreted
        – attack the baby fetus and give it teh autizmz!!!11!!!!!

        Boy, that tiny concentration of Hg is a busy little bee with a lot of duties, and of course it isn’t administered IV it is administered IM and only slowly diffuses into the blood stream so the concentration will be much, much lower – almost what some folks would call “infinitesimal”.

        • Mike Stevens

          And most pregnant women opt for the thimerosal free versions of flu vaccine anyway…

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Judith posts an excellent comment, and within eight hours she gets four responses full of derp.

          • Not that you are qualified to judge.

          • ciaparker2

            Sometimes it’s even faster than that. I’ve seen comments critical of vaccines be attacked by twenty shill responses all at once, within ten minutes, like a bunch of barracuda. They text each other to summon them in for the attempted kill. All of Judith’s comments are excellent, she is an intelligent, well-informed, well-mannered woman that they’d love to silence.

          • sabelmouse

            gmo too. apparently ”food babe” is catnip over there.
            and yes, they are.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            We all either follow eachother because we enjoy reading eachother’s comments, or click on people’s names to find whether they’ve added anything new because going through the hundreds of comments gets boring and there’s no way to just bring up the new posts.
            .
            Same as how you, Sabel, AD, Ron Roy and the others all get to the same threads as eachother.

          • Provide evidence of the shills, Cia.

            You can stop when you get to 20.

          • Judith

            30% of all flu vaccines contain mercury. Many mothers are entirely ignorant of what is in their vaccines.. Who are the 30% or people who get the flu vaccines? You say one can opt out – only if you are aware.

          • Brian

            Judith, if thimerosal causes autism, can you point to a reduction in autism rates proportional to the reduction in mercury content from the vaccination schedule in the early 2000s?

          • Re: “Judith, if thimerosal causes autism, can you point to a reduction in autism rates proportional to the reduction in mercury content from the vaccination schedule in the early 2000s?”

            No, Judith can’t (but you already knew that). But I can show the opposite: autism diagnosis rates going UP after the withdrawal of thimerosal-containing MMR vaccines:

            “The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.”
            http://1796kotok.com/pdfs/MMR_withdrawal.pdf

            And here’s another study showing no link between autism rates and withdrawal of the MMR vaccine:

            “During the period of MMR usage no significant difference was found in the incidence of regression between MMR-vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children. Among the proportion and incidence of regression across the three MMR-program-related periods (before, during and after MMR usage), no significant difference was found between those who had received MMR and those who had not. Moreover, the incidence of regression did not change significantly across the three periods.”
            https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10803-006-0157-3?LI=true

            Of course, scientific evidence is not going to convince committed anti-vaxxers like Judith, anymore than satellite images would convince committed flat-earthers.

          • nichicanilimonada

            Those are good citations for debunking MMR-autism claims, but not so much regarding the thimerosal-autism ones, as no MMR ever contained any. You’re on the right track, though.

            Two very large studies spring to mind where it was demonstrated that autism continued to rise after thimerosal was excluded from childhood vaccines in California and Denmark by 2001 and 1991, respectively (with similar results in Canada, where paediatric vaccines have been thimerosal-free since ’96):

            Continuing increases in autism reported to Califonia’s developmental services system: mercury in retrograde

            Thimerosal and the occurance of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data

            You’re absolutely right that no amount of evidence will convince committed anti-vaxxers and in pointing out their similarity to flat-earthers. They will flat-out admit the former, although they will (usually) deny the latter.

          • shay simmons

            No vaccine contains mercury, Judith. You have been corrected on this numerous times.

            You look thirsty; may I offer you a glass of hydrogen?

          • Judith

            So you show your total ignorance –

            Meningococcal Menomune A, C, AC and A/C/Y/W-135 Sanofi Pasteur, Inc. 0.01% (multidose)
            (single dose) 25 µg/0.5 dose

            Afluria CSL Limited 0 (single dose)
            0.01% (multidose) 0 (0.5mL single dose)
            24.5 µg (0.5 multi

            Fluzone5
            multi-dose presentation)
            Sanofi Pasteur, Inc. 0.01% 25 µg/0.5 mL dose

            Fluvirin
            (multi-dose vial) Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd. 0.01% 25 µg/0.5 ml dose

            FluLaval ID Biomedical Corporation of Quebec 0.01% 25 µg/0.5 ml dose

            Meningococcal Menomune A, C, AC and A/C/Y/W-135 Sanofi Pasteur, Inc. 0.01% (multidose)
            0 (single dose) 25 µg/0.5 dose

            https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

          • Jazz Let

            Please learn some basic chemistry, element and compounds containing those elements do not react in the same way, this really is simple stuff and if you don’t learn about it you will continue to make comments that are baseless.

          • shay simmons

            There is no mercury in vaccines, Judith. Are you sure you wouldn’t like a nice cool glass of hydrogen?

          • ciaparker2

            Thimerosal is half ethyl-mercury by weight. Dr. Mark Noble and Dr. Burbacher demonstrated how extremely damaging vaccine mercury in thimerosal is to the subject who gets it.

          • shay simmons

            Chemistry fail.

          • Half is not 100%. Also, note that you’re not even claiming that it’s half mercury by weight.

          • Judith

            I even provided you with the link to prove it – and you just continue to lie

          • shay simmons

            Your link does not prove there is elemental mercury in vaccines Judith. Have some hydrogen!

          • No, Cia, the task was to provide evidence that there is mercury in vaccines. Mercury is an element. So far, you have given us a bunch of cites with where there’s a mercury compound in vaccines.

            Name one vaccine that contains mercury i.e. an element i.e. elemental mercury.

          • Judith

            30% of flu vaccines contain ethyl-mercury. Ethyl mercury is just as dangerous as methyl mercury and mercury is one of the most toxic substances on earth.

            In a 2012 issue of the Journal of Toxicology, neuroscientists at the prestigious Methodist Hospital Medical Center in Houston published their investigation into thimerosal’s toxicological effects upon mitochondria in human astrocyte cells.
            “The researchers observed that vaccine ethylmercury, which is more lipophilic (able to cross the blood-brain barrier) than methylmercury, is readily taken up by the astrocyte’s mitochondria, thereby disrupting the cell’s respiratory functions and eventually leading to cell death. The researchers observed that astrocytes, when exposed to thimerosal, exhibited extreme signs of oxidation and “highly damaged mitochondrial DNA.”[5] This study seems to provide biological evidence to support claims that thimerosal is very likely associated with some incidences of autism.

            The influenza vaccine, which continues to use a high mercury level, and the MMR are the two most cited vaccines associated with autism. Yet studies point to other vaccines as well. Doctors at Stony Brook University’s Medical Center determined that male infants vaccinated with the Hepatitis B vaccine prior to 1999 have a three-fold higher autism rather. The risk was greater among non-white boys. During the first four year period of the study—between 1997 and 2000—thimerosal was stilled used as a preservative in the Hepatitis vaccine.[6]

            5. Sharpe MA, Livingston AD, Baskin DS. Thimerosal-derived ethylmercury is a mitochondrial toxin in human astrocytes: possible role of Fenton chemistry in the oxidation and breakage of mtDNA. Journal of Toxicology vol. 2012, (2012)

            6. Toxicol Environ Health A. 2010;73(24):1665-77. doi: 10.1080/15287394.2010.519317.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            There is no mercury in vaccines, Judith.

            Why do you people keep saying that?

            What do you actually think the 50 µg/mL refers to?

          • We keep saying it because we understand basic chemistry.

          • Von Braun

            No you don’t. You prove that everytime you touch a keyboard.

          • Not that you’re an authority on the matter.

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            Way more of an authority than any of you clowns.

          • Bare assertion. Next.

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            You put the words “bare ass” in bare assertion.

            I heard about what you do to puppies.

          • How childish. But I’m sure you have evidence.

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            Plenty. I have the court disposition and photographs of Exhibit 3A that was presented at your trial.

            You’re a very cruel person.

          • Then you’ll have no problem linking us to said court disposition, will you?

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            People v. Speegle
            53 Cal.App.4th 1405 (1997)

            THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent,
            v.
            CHARLOTTE LORRAINE SPEEGLE, Defendant and Appellant.
            Docket No. C021838.

            https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/5038/export

          • Lol, so ‘no’.

          • Mike Stevens

            The only flu vaccine which has thimerosal in it is Afluria. None of the others contain any significant amounts, and no other vaccines contain any either.

            Mothers are advised they can eat up to 4 ounces of albacore tuna per week and still stay within EPA guidelines for systemic mercury compound exposure. This would total throughout pregnancy the same quantity of organomercurials as contained in 50 shots of the Afluria vaccine, since a single dose (which is all that is recommended), contains the organomercury equivalent of 3 ounces of tuna, so this is within safety limits.
            Afluria also contains ethylmercury, which is inherently less toxic than methyl mercury, the type of compound found in tuna. Afluria is one of around 7 available flu vaccines. Even if a mother gets Afluria, there are no safety concerns regarding mercury exposure.

            You’d do well to read about thimerosal from an appropriate source, and not constantly seek out antivaccine propaganda websites that do nothing but scaremonger.

            https://www.nrdc.org/stories/mercury-guide
            https://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm

          • ciaparker2

            While I certainly don’t recommend consuming mercury in any form, that which is eaten for the most part is filtered out before it reaches the bloodstream and vital organs. When you inject it, it has a fast track to them, and is stored for life in those of us with impaired detoxification mechanisms. And it causes many disorders: M.S., paralysis, autism (vaccine encephalitis also does so), Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and undoubtedly many more.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream either, but into the muscle, so the same applies.

          • “30% of all flu vaccines contain mercury.”

            Right, then you should have no trouble listing the specific flu vaccines that contain mercury, right, Judith? Just remember that mercury is an element.

        • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

          Ethyl mercury has been shown to cross the placenta in rats and primates.

          Time-dependent distribution of ²⁰³Hg-mercury compounds in rat and monkey as studied by whole body autoradiography
          Tadao Takahashi

        • ciaparker2

          I’m still struggling to chelate out the vaccine mercury stored in my brain, which caused my M.S., which should rather be called “classic mercury poisoning.” And all from thimerosal in my nine DPT/dTs, received decades ago.

          • shay simmons

            In other words, you’re slowly poisoning yourself and still can’t see it.

          • ciaparker2

            The vaccines poisoned me. I’m slowly getting the mercury out. It looks like if I take DMSA and selenium they grab the circulating mercury and excrete it. I’m taking a break from the ALA that pulls the mercury out of my brain: I pulled too much out two weeks ago with ALA, and have had some severe attacks, with dizziness, loss of balance, and vomiting. I see that I am very mercury-toxic, but I’ve still got a lot of work to do.

          • shay simmons

            What you don’t see is that you’re quacking yourself with wholly unnecessary and dangerous treatments.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            If you had those rather scary side effects from a mainstream medication, you would be talking about how its horrible poisonous stuff, but I guess as its alternative, its okay?
            .
            How do you know you have mercury poisoning? Which of the symptoms of mercury poisoning do you have (that cannot be explained by any medical condition youre already diagnosed with)? Were you diagnosed by a real doctor?
            .
            The thing is, some of these alternative tests given by a naturopath or other alternative medicine practitioner, are rigged for false positives, so they can sell you supplements or treatments or whatever. Oh the irony.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia spends over $100 a month on homeopathy and useless supplements sold to her by a money-grubbing snake oil salesman.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            And they think doctors want to take their money, but their homeopath/chiropractor/naturopath/guy who owns a website about what diseases can be cured by things bought from his online shop does it out of the goodness of their heart.
            .
            If someone got mercury poisoning as a child, and left it untreated into adulthood, they probably would not be able to be typing on this thread. In fact, I am certain they would be dead.
            .
            Actually, I looked it up, and its impossible. The body doesn’t hold on to mercury forever, it decreases over time (even without chelation). This is why you can eat tuna many times in your life and not die. If she had untreated mercury poisoning in childhood that is so severe that she needs months of chelation therapy as an adult, medical science says she would be dead. An amount of mercury large enough to do this would just straight up kill a baby.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s always odd to me that the more mercury she has “pulled out of her brain” the worse her symptoms get.
            And the amount of mercury in her brain never gets any less, meaning she needs constant retreatment with her very expensive quack remedies from her favourite snake oil conman.

            You think the penny would have dropped by now on how she is being taken for a ride, but no….

          • ILoveJellybeans

            But everything alternative must be true, only the majority can be evil….
            .
            Its ironic that everything that they accuse mainstream medicine of doing, alternative medicine is definitely doing.
            .
            Its also amazing how horrible side effects of alternative medicine can get, or how sick they can get for their real health conditions to be untreated, and still insist its fine and totally meant to happen, just means the toxins are leaving the body.

          • Cia, if you’re very mercury-toxic, that would mean that you poison the mercury so which is it? Did you poison the mercury or did the mercury poison you?

            Also, mercury (which is an element) in a vaccine would be a manufacturing defect, which you can sue for.

          • ciaparker2

            http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/about-vaccines/vaccine-ingredients/mercury/
            Mercury was used in the vaccine preservative thimerosal for decades: in the diphtheria vaccine, later the DPT, later also the hep-B, Hib, and flu vaccines. About 50% mercury by weight. Millions of children received large amounts of it, far above the “believed-safe” level, for decades. Many of us reacted to it with one of many disabling conditions caused by mercury. Read the link and you will see that mercury in the ethylmercury used in thimerosal was NEVER proven safe, NEVER proven to be completely unlike mercury not in a compound. How curious that the mercury in METHYLMERCURY is universally recognized to be devastatingly damaging, as many accidents involving accidental consumption of mercury-treated grain and contaminated fish have proven, but that everyone touched by the pharma lobby will go to the WALL denying that the mercury in ETHYLMERCURY is EVER dangerous to ANYONE, as that would constitute an admission of the destruction of millions of lives by mercury in vaccines, and NO ONE is willing to pick up the tab on THAT. The symptoms of mercury poisoning are many, and are identical to those of MS, autism, Alzheimer’s, and Parkinson’s: loss of language, failure to develop normal language, echolalia, pronoun reversal, no interest in social interaction, inability to interact socially, no eye contact, perseverations and stims, chronic diarrhea, chronic constipation, numbness, paralysis, ataxia (loss of balance when walking), dizziness, nausea, vomiting, loss of memory, dementia, and many others, in a quite mercurial array. How curious and completely inexplicable that many children and adults have developed these symptoms shortly after getting mercury-containing vaccines! That being said, autism is also caused by just plain vaccine encephalitis, an excessively enthusiastic immune system reaction to the incursion of a vaccines, which can do stroke-like damage resulting in abnormal or absent language, social relations, and ambulation.

            Mercury was largely removed from vaccines by 2002, although my daughter was damaged by the mercury-containing Recombivax, given without permission and against my express orders, a year after Merck promised to take it out, and a decade after most brands of pet vaccines had removed the mercury in them. It is still in the DPT widely used in the Third World, and in about half of injected flu vaccines in the US in the same large amount it ever was , as in standard Fluzone. It’s still in many vaccines in damaging trace amounts.

          • Proponent

            What is with you guys constantly resurrecting dead and discredited conspiracies?

            Locked in some kind of twisted, bizarro time warp?

            Sheesh.

            Any -ways..

            The study in question; “Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Austism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data”.. was published in the journal of Pediatrics on September 1, 2003 and examined the possible link between thimerosal and autism.

            Yes, the Danish study had some flaws, but suppressing crucial data is not one. What was left out of Mark Geier’s press release is that the Danish study’s findings have been replicated about ten time over. If thimerosal caused autism, we would expect to see a precipitous decline in autism diagnoses among children born after 2001. We haven’t seen that.

            (h/t to AutismNewsBeat )

          • FallsAngel

            One of the biggest misconceptions in this whole mercury issue is the
            phrase “50% mercury by weight” regarding Thimerosal. That means that
            the thimerosal is half mercury, not that half the damn vaccine dose is.

          • cecilia

            The vaccines poisoned me.

            LOLOLOLOL
            you guys crack me up

          • I thought autism was mercury poisoning?

          • Which vaccines contain mercury? Mercury is an element.

          • ciaparker2

            What a time waster you are. Thimerosal is a preservative used in vaccines which is half ethylmercury by weight. Mercury in compounds, like methylmercury and ethylmercury, is even more dangerous than elemental mercury. Until recently, most killed virus vaccines, such as DPT/DTaP/Tdap, hepatitis-B (which had mercury until 2002, three years after Merck promised not to use it anymore, and a decade after the dangers became known and it was taken out of pet vaccines and from vaccines made in many countries: my daughter was given the vaccine without permission and WITH mercury in 2000, and she reacted to it with encephalitis and autism), and Hib meningitis, as well as in killed virus flu vaccines. It’s still in almost half of injected flu vaccines in the US at the same rates as ever, 50 mcg of thimerosal per dose. When they passed a law in the US mandating that manufacturers take mercury out of vaccines primarily for use in children, the flu vaccine, even though it has been recommended for all children and babies over six months old, was PRIMARILY meant for adults, so it didn’t have to take the mercury out of them. Who cares how many of the elderly get Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s from the vaccine mercury? Or how many children get autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, or learning and behavioral disabilities from it? Certainly not the vaccine companies or their hangers-on.

          • I didn’t ask about the relative safety profiles, Cia. Though, since you brought it up, claiming there’s mercury in vaccines rather than a more dangerous mercury compound (premises granted arguendo) would be misinformed consent and would be lying to parents about how safe vaccines are and would make you a vax-pusher.

            Many people care and have studied this – I know they didn’t come up with the answer you’d like but tough toodles.

            Now, once more, where is there elemental mercury in vaccines? Name two since you used a plural.

            We’ll move onto your other points once you have answered that very simple question.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So what does mercury cause again? Because that list are all things that present differently, and none of them fit with the accepted clinical definition of mercury poisoning.
            .
            Mercury doesn’t cause everything.
            .
            That’s the thing with trusting alternative medicine, there are so many “treatments” that can be used on pretty much every ailment a human being can have, despite the many different causes of them, that people tend to think that all medical conditions are the same thing, especially ones that share one or two symptoms.
            .
            In the real world, however, there are many different types of medications that do the same thing, like that there are several types of antibiotics, because the human body and medical conditions aren’t a one size fits all kind of thing. Not all headaches are migraines, some are brain tumours, and others just mean you might need your eyes testing, or to drink more water.

          • ciaparker2

            There are two causes of autism, which now afflicts at least one in forty American children. Mercury is one. Vaccine encephalitis is the other. It is not rare, but very common. Any vaccine can cause it as part of an overenthusiastic effort on the part of the individual immune system to counter the perceived threat of the vaccine. The immune system always mounts an inflammatory response: if it didn’t, the desired antibodies would not be formed. But very often the inflammation is excessive, it affects the brain and the digestive system, and the result is autism (or ADHD, seizure disorders, and/or learning or behavioral disabilities), or many kinds of bowel disease. The symptoms of the painful swollen brain are constant, inconsolable screaming for three hours or longer within a few weeks of a vaccination, blank staring (petit mal seizures), or excessive somnolence. The last two are easy to miss in infants, and the first is usually brushed off as just what babies do, or maybe colic (which doesn’t occur in the first week of life), but nonetheless the brain is being damaged. If the symptoms last a short time, usually the damage done is slight: maybe just dyslexia or something which no one will ever associate with vaccine damage. Or maybe lack of compassion or tact, which, again, no one will ever associate with vaccine damage. Or, if the screaming etc. continue for four days and nights, as in my newborn baby’s case, it denotes severe brain damage which is wiping out the language and social centers of the brain, and the child will be diagnosed with autism once the time for developing normal speech has come and gone.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Has your daughter ever had an MRI done?

          • Mike Stevens

            You’ll have to explain to her what an MRI is.

            PS: The “severe encephalitis” in her child was self-diagnosed purely on the basis of the crying.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Lol I know. If it was encephalitis, she would either have had to go to the hospital, had it confirmed by a medical professional (and would definitely have an MRI scan done), or she would have progressed into seizures and unconsciousness and died, because encephalitis doesn’t just go away on its own without medical treatment.

          • Mike Stevens

            As I have told her repeatedly.
            I am actually the Principal Investigator for my NHS Trust for 2 different National research studies we are running on encephalitis (DexEnceph and EncephalitisUK). It’s one of the infections I have a more than a passing familiarity with.
            But no, Cia knows all about the diagnosis of encephalitis, and not just more than me, but more than all the international experts in encephalitis, including those who determine diagnostic criteria.
            Like these for instance:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4121461/

          • Something which no-one will ever associate with vaccine damage? You mean….not vaccine damage.

          • Mike Stevens

            You have less mercury in you from your vaccinations than if you had eaten a couple of dozen tuna sandwiches, Cia.

            Why is that minute amount of mercury “still in your system” if you have been constantly chelating it out for the last 4 years or so?

            …Oh that’s right, your altmed practitioner doesn’t want to lose one of his best income streams… what was it again, $100 a week IIRC?

          • ciaparker2

            http://vaxtruth.org/2011/09/the-flu-vaccine-what-your-doctor-wont-tell-you-or-probably-doesnt-even-know/

            http://www.nvic.org/faqs/mercury-thimerosal.aspx

            Mercury is extremely toxic in even the smallest amounts. For those of us who do not naturally excrete it readily, it causes life-altering diseases. I had nine DPTs/dTs. Has a study been done on how many DPTs a group of 10,000 M.S. patients had had?

            Many of us keep the vaccine mercury stored in our brains for life, but it is mobilized from time to time to cause symptoms of severe disease, like M.S. or Alzheimer’s. Please read the articles linked so that you might learn about the difference between ingesting mercury in food and having it injected into you, where it accesses the bloodstream within seconds. I’m mildly surprised that you didn’t know.

            I read five years ago that to chelate out the vaccine mercury in the amount necessary to cause M.S. required an average of seven years. However, sad experience has convinced me that it is better to chelate it out according to the Andy Cutler protocol in extremely minute amounts at a steady rate for three days a week. It is EXTREMELY slow. I started chelating in October 2012, stopped for a while starting in October 2014, then, after my harrowing experience with oil-soluble vitamin C, ascorbyl palmitate, started again at the end of August 2015. I stopped in mid-June of this year due to a harrowing experience which set off another two months of attacks because of having inadvertently taken too much ALA. I hope to start again next week, make no further mistakes, and hope to eventually recover from my symptoms of multiple sclerosis/mercury poisoning. I became as impatient at the slow progress as you apparently would be, and thought to speed it up with ascorbyl palmitate, Mer Detox, and Citra whatever it was. The excessive ALA was an accident, but geez, people take ALA in larger amounts all the time, they sell it at the health food store. UN- fortunately, with as much mercury as I continue to have in my brain, pulling it out faster than the AC protocol set off many horrible attacks of dizziness, nausea, vomiting, ataxia, sweating, which were identical to my M.S. attacks diagnosed as such by neurologists and MRI.

            Again, there is no safe amount of mercury to inject into someone. Did you read the Mark Noble studies on how thimerosal does severe damage when injected in even the tiniest amounts? Are you still willing to take mercury-containing flu vaccines? Be warned, they caused Alzheimer’s in my mother (who reacted to the diphtheria vaccine as a child with Asperger’s and lifelong bowel disease, so was susceptible to the mercury to start with) and paralysis in my father.

          • JGC

            “Mercury is extremely toxic in even the smallest amounts.”

            1) Define ‘smallest amounts’

            2) How does mercury’s toxicity compare to thimerosal’s toxicity? You do understand they are two entirely different things, don’t you?

            “Many of us keep the vaccine mercury stored in our brains for life, but it is mobilized from time to time to cause symptoms of severe disease, like M.S. or Alzheimer’s.”

            Citations needed: your evidence that ‘mercury from vaccines stored in our brains for life’ mobilizes to cause symptoms also associated with MS or ASD’s would be what, exactly?

            “I read five years ago that to chelate out the vaccine mercury in the amount necessary to cause M.S. required an average of seven years.”

            Citation again needed.

            “Andy Cutler protocol”

            That would be the Andy Cutler who has a degree in chemical engineering, and not in any field relevant to vaccines safety, immunology, neurodevelopmental disorders, etc.?

            Who has not published a single PubMed indexed article related to autism, mercury or chelation?

            Who hasn’t published results from a single clinical study to even demonstrate proof of concept, let alone demonstrate the safety or efficacy of his ‘protocol?

            Who recommends clients determine if they suffer from ‘deranged mineral transport” (something that he hasn’t demonstrated exists) by means of a pseudoscientific ‘Hair Elements Test’ conducted by the infamous lab Doctor’s Data?

            That Andy Cutler?

            ‘Again, there is no safe amount of mercury to inject into someone.”

            Good thing then that no one is injecting mercury into anyone isn’t it?

            “Did you read the Mark Noble studies on how thimerosal does severe damage when injected in even the tiniest amounts? ”

            No, nor can I find any studies on thimerosal authored by Noble indexed on PubMed. Could you provide their PMID’s?

            “Are you still willing to take mercury-containing flu vaccines?”

            I’ not aware there are any mercury containing flu vaccines–thimerosal containing, perhaps, but that’s not the same thing.

            ‘Be warned, they caused Alzheimer’s in my mother (who reacted to the diphtheria vaccine as a child with sperger’s and lifelong bowel disease, so was susceptible to the mercury to start with) and paralysis in my father.”
            How exactly did you positively establish that your mother’s Alzheimer’s, Asperger’s and chronic bowel disease were actually caused by vaccines she had received? It is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

          • FallsAngel

            We’ve told her that before, too. She should take the money she spends on that crap and put it in trust for her daughter.

      • Judith

        It is you who is lying FallenAngel – and nobody should believe anything you say when you say “Thimerosal, not mercury in it” when thimerosal is 49.6% ethyl mercury by weight.

        “Thimerosal, is an organic compound containing 49.6% ethyl mercury by weight. It has been used in very small amounts in some vaccines since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination, particularly in multi-dose vials where withdrawing repeated doses from the same vial was more likely to result in contamination.”
        http://www.ncirs.edu.au/assets/provider_resources/fact-sheets/thiomersal-fact-sheet.pdf

        Hey 30% of all flu vaccines contain 25mcg of mercury –

        The CDC study, Alkyl Mercury-Induced Toxicity: Multiple Mechanisms of Action, in the journal, Reviews of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology.

        The 45-page meta-review of relevant science examines the various ways that mercury harms the human body. Its authors, John F. Risher, PhD, and Pamela Tucker, MD, are researchers in the CDC’s Division of Toxicology and Human Health Sciences, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.

        “Methylmercury and ethylmercury share common chemical properties, and both significantly disrupt central nervous system development and function.Thimerosal is extremely toxic at very low exposures and is more damaging than methylmercury in some studies. For example, ethylmercury is even more destructive to the mitochondria in cells than methylmercury.The ethylmercury in thimerosal does not leave the body quickly as the CDC once claimed, but is metabolized into highly neurotoxic forms.”

        • FallsAngel

          As someone else explained to you today Judith, ordinary table salt is made up of two dangerous elements. Together, they make innocuous salt. Thimersal is not elemental mercury. It’s that simple.

        • Judith, mercury refers to an element. A mercury compound is not the same thing.

    • shay simmons

      Dr William Thompson also said in the same statement: “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

      Why do you leave that part off, Judith?

    • Can you name one vaccine involving mercury, bearing in mind that mercury is an element?

      • Judith

        Are you trying to be smart –

        J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2007 Dec;10(8):575-96.

        Organic mercury, which readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, preferentially targets nerve cells and nerve fibers…. In the developing brain, mercury interferes with neuronal migration, depresses cell division, disrupts microtubule function, and reduces [neural cell adhesion molecules]….

        …the effect on infants of eHg in vaccines has never been studied…

        Med Hypotheses. 2001 Apr;56(4):462-71.

        Limited data on toxicity from low-dose exposures to ethylmercury are available, but toxicity may be similar to that of methylmercury… Depending on the immunization schedule, vaccine formulation, and infant weight, cumulative exposure of infants to mercury from thimerosal during the first 6 months of life may exceed EPA guidelines…. [N]o controlled studies have been conducted to examine low-dose thimerosal toxicity in humans…. Because high-dose exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal results in toxicity comparable to methylmercury, and because of the chemical similarity of the 2 compounds, it appears reasonable to consider toxicity of low doses of methylmercury and ethylmercury to be similar….

        Pediatrics. 2001 May;107(5):1147-54.

        Due to possible adverse health effects, investigations on its metabolism and toxicity are urgently needed…. [T]himerosal is genotoxic in the cytochalasin B block micronucleus test with human lymphocytes. These data raise some concern on the widespread use of thimerosal.

        Arch Toxicol. 2003 Jan;77(1):50-5. Epub 2002 Nov 6.

        The 2001 IOM report [Institute of Medicine, US National Academy of Sciences] has concluded the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders is biologically plausible. Bernard et al. have compared the similar biological abnormalities commonly found in autism and the corresponding pathologies arising from mercury exposure. Distinct similarities were found between autism and mercury exposure in their effects upon biochemistry, the immune system, the central nervous system structure, neuro-chemistry and neurophysiology. Magos et al. compared the effects of the administration of similar doses of ethylmercury and methylmercury in rats. They determined that there was little difference in the neurotoxicities of ethylmercury and methylmercury….

        Pediatr Rehabil. 2003 Apr-Jun;6(2):97-102.

        The buildup of mercury in the tissues of children is particularly alarming in light of a recent article by Baskin et al. They have examined the toxic effects of micromolar concentrations of thimerosal in cultured human cerebral corticol neurons and in normal human fibroblasts. The results demonstrated that thimerosal in micromolar concentrations induced membrane and DNA damage, and initiated caspase-3 dependent apoptosis in human neurons and fibroblasts. In addition, the authors report that thimerosal toxicity may occur at even lower doses than those utilized in their experiments with longer times of exposure. Another recent study by Makani et al. has also demonstrated high cellular toxicity of thimerosal in low micromolar concentrations in T-cells incubated with thimerosal for 24 hours….

        J Am Phys Surg. 2003; 8(3): 76-79.

        Etc.

        • shay simmons

          Lots of cites..but none of them answer the question. Which vaccines contain elemental mercury?

          • Judith

            It doesn’t matter which vaccines do or don’t – the point is ethyl mercury is toxic period….

          • Not period, Judith.

            The relevant questions when deciding on toxicity of a thing are:

            1)At what dose is substance x toxic
            2)At what dose is substance x in product y
            3)How do the answers to 1 and 2 compare

            Without being able to tell us at least 1 and 2, you are either a)clueless or b)trying to scare us.

            You’re still dodging the question though: Which vaccines contain elemental mercury? It may not matter to you but why not answer the question as a show of good faith?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So is pretty much everything. Its all about what level it takes to poison you. Some things, such as water, it would take a very high dose to be able to kill you (yes, people have died from drinking too much water). For some things, such as a bite from a venomous animal, it can just take a little.
            .
            There is cyanide in fruit, particularly in apple pips and peach stones, but it is at low enough doses that you would have to eat large handfuls of fruit pips/stones to die (Ive heard someone promote that as a cancer cure, which technically will work because cancer cant kill you if the cyanide gets there first). Eating several apples at a time is harmless.
            .
            There is mercury in some fish such as tuna (the most toxic sort too), which is why it is recommended to only eat it a few times a week at most. For just average fish eating, it wont harm you as your liver and kidneys can excrete it in small doses.
            .
            Many foods contain low levels of aluminium, even things we eat every day. Even human breastmilk and baby formula contains aluminium, and that is the only food any baby under a certain age eats.
            .
            Formaldehyde sounds scary, but did you know there are small amounts running through your veins as we speak? The body naturally produces small amounts of formaldehyde and then excretes it.

          • It only takes a thimbleful of water to kill people…if inhaled. We commonly call this drowning.

          • 46nd2

            You’re one of those pharma shills I was talking about, what you get paid to deceive your friends and neighbors?

          • All you have to do is post the evidence that I am a pharma shill.

            Things that don’t count as evidence:

            Bare assertion

            Things that do count as evidence

            -A paycheque
            -An INTERNAL instruction document
            – A testable falsifiable definition that runs both ways.

            ‘Till then? BSPG = FAD.

          • 46nd2

            I was thinking the link to the “anti-vaxxer” organization you are linked to. Now we’ve come to the end of our discussion and you can slime away.

          • Except that is not evidence for your claim.

          • All you’ve got to do is the post the evidence that I am a shill and I’ll go away.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6df0b23b2288545f97082e2fccd26a5badf138101afd08f310b05f6781b8a638.jpg

          • 46nd2

            I could not care less what you do.

          • Good job that we’re currently dealing with your responsibility to uphold the claims that you made yourself which has nothing to do with me then.

            Come on, show me that paycheque that you have for me. All you have to do is post it.

          • So, what’s this link to the “anti-vaxxer” organisation I’m linked to?

          • Ron Roy

            No we call that choking.

          • Depends, actually.

          • AutismDadd

            I’ll UPS you a thimble

          • That’ll be interesting.

          • shay simmons

            So are you backpedaling from your claim that there’s mercury – which is an element – in vaccines? Well, that’s a start. Next steps will be coming up with the answer to these questions:

            1. At what amounts is ethyl mercury toxic?
            2. In what amounts is ethyl mercury found in vaccines?

          • Judith, you claimed that there was mercury – an element – in vaccines. Either back up the claim or retract it…but retracting means you need to stop using it with everyone.

        • Hardly, Judith. If I was trying to be smart, I would be talking about alleles and SNPs and homozygous and heterozygous – I wouldn’t be correcting people on basic chemistry, either.

          As for T-Cells incubated – I could incubate cells in water and kill them off that way – hell, I could do this for humans – the latter case is called drowning. It says nothing about the general safety of water.

        • Ron Roy

          Being smart is beyond Derp Tertles capabilities.

          • Jazz Let

            Whereas insulting people is your only capability.

          • It’s like training a dog – I don’t have to be a rocket scientist. All I need to know is more than the dog.

    • shay simmons

      Justice Mittings remarks were limited to Dr Walker Smith. Why don’t you quote his comments on Wakefield?

      I guess for the same reason you never quote William Thompson’s statement on vaccines.

  • Judith

    Fake news ? Where are proper vaccinated/unvaccinated studies – never been done. Recent research should be examined and further research looking into the ever increasing neurological disorders in our children should be undertaken.

    A team of researchers from the Yale School of Medicine and PennState College of Medicine have found a disturbing
    association between the timing of vaccines and the onset of certain braindisorders in a subset of children.
    Analyzing five years’ worth of private health insurance data on children ages 6-15, these scientists found that young people vaccinated in the previous three to 12 months were significantly more likely to be diagnosed with certain neuropsychiatric disordersthan their non-vaccinated counterparts.

    This new study, which raises important questions about whether over-vaccination may be triggering immune and neurological damage in a subset of vulnerable children (something parents of children with autism have been saying for years), was published in the peer-reviewed journal Frontiers in Psychiatry, Jan. 19.

    More than 95,000 children in the database that were analyzed had one of seven neuropsychiatric disorders: anorexia nervosa, anxiety disorder, attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, major depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and tic disorder.

    • sabelmouse

      next we get ”but at least they didn’t die”, as if the chances of that were high.
      as someone living with eatig disorder, ocd, depression, and general anxiety i’ve often wished i were dead.

      • Mike Stevens

        Sabel, considering what you have told us about your childhood years, you have my sympathies and understanding as to why you now have serious issues and illness.
        But please stop trying to blame them on vaccines, when any psychologist would explain why you suffer from them.

        • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

          Mike “Douchebag” Stevens is now gaslighting people, telling people what they know is false.

          Vaccines have killed and causes paralysis; this is not debatable. The injected aluminum can cause neurological issues.

          Also, injected antigens can cause autoimmune disease.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            This is a debate, and telling people what they “know” to be true is actually false isn’t gaslighting, its pointing out facts. Like if someone stated they know that cats lay eggs because they found an egg in the cat’s bed, it wouldn’t be gaslighting to tell them that cats don’t lay eggs.
            .
            The only people who are claiming that vaccines are 100% one way or another, is the antivaxxers. Even pro vax sources, even the CDC, FDA, NHS websites all state that there are risks associated with vaccines, however the chances of getting one of these serious side effects are rare, compared with the chances of getting one of the serious complications of the diseases they cause, so its less risky to vaccinate.

          • ciaparker2

            The chance of having a serious side effect is about 50%. One in three with some kind of allergy, one in nine asthma, one in twenty a seizure disorder, one in ten ADHD, one in six a learning or behavioral disability, one in forty (at least) autism, one in 200 childhood diabetes. It is true that there would be more of the VPDs if fewer people vaxxed for them, but I would not recommend that people get most of them unless they were immunocompromised. I would say the DT series after two years old, the HIb vaccine only for babies between six and eighteen months old in daycare and not breast fed (bearing in mind that it DOES cause peanut allergy in one in fifty and other types of damage too, including autism), and the polio series only if polio comes back here. Measles, mumps, rubella (for children, not pregnant women), and chickenpox are extremely beneficial diseases to get naturally. Pertussis is good to get for those past early infancy if they have never gotten a pertussis vaccine: in that case, they’ll get permanent immunity after having pertussis, otherwise it won’t be permanent (original antigenic sin).

            It’s much MORE risky to vaccinate in most cases. I think most people could tolerate the DT series without serious reactions, and if that were the only vaccine they got, I think we could call a halt to the age of autism and of autoimmune disease.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Where are you getting these statistics from?
            Those may be statistics for how many people have those things (almost, 1 in 68 people are autistic), but there is no proof that these things are caused by vaccines.
            .
            The reason polio is still a part of the schedule despite there not being a case of it in many years, is that polio is still epidemic in other countries. Its only a plane ride away. All it takes is for someone who has been to a country where polio is active, and then go to a country where polio isn’t active. If nobody was vaccinated, there would be a large outbreak-causing cases of paralysis and some deaths, and because diseases typically have an incubation period before someone starts showing symptoms, and that mild polio can be mistaken for a cold, it would be too late to vaccinate everyone as the vaccine wont work if you already actually have the disease. Once a disease is gone from everywhere, the vaccine is then removed from the schedule, like smallpox (which is really, really good, I am glad that the horrifying deadly disease that is prevented by the scariest looking needle ever is the first one to die).
            .
            Measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox are not exactly beneficial other than that once you’ve got them, you most likely wont get them again. Having the vaccine also trains the immune system to fight off these viruses, but with a much smaller chance of serious side effects. Although these diseases are usually mild, its not all rainbows and butterflies and fun times. Having a disease sucks, the fevers, the tiredness, the itching, pain, swelling, coughing…even being mildly sick sucks. All of these diseases also come with serious complications that can be even more dangerous, like encephalitis, pneumonia, the chicken pox rash could become infected, measles can cause blindness, mumps can cause infertility, some of these viruses can go dormant in the system and come back later on…with chicken pox, its shingles, which is really painful, but with measles it is SSPE, which is fatal.
            .
            Pertussis is NOT good to get past early infancy, you just have a greater chance of not dying from it. Children with pertussis still get really serious coughs, bad enough to burst the blood vessels in their eyes, to make them throw up, disrupt their sleeping, it is not just a bit of a cough. Also, those children with pertussis can easily pass it on to babies who can die from it.
            .
            Autism didn’t start with vaccines. It did not increase with vaccines. It existed long before it had a name, but autistic people from those days were either locked in an asylum and lumped in with people with intellectual disabilities, or were misdiagnosed and just thought of as that weird guy in the village. There are even historical descriptions of what sounds like autism from hundreds of years ago. Then once autism was discovered, people who would have been thought of as having an intellectual disability previously (but not in those terms), were then considered autistic. Then as more and more was discovered about autism, they realised it was a spectrum and broadened the diagnostic criteria, which then included the ones who were just thought of as weird.

          • shay simmons

            Citation needed.

          • Evidence?

          • sabelmouse

            he’s a long tradition with that.

      • Judith

        Hugs to you Sabel

        • sabelmouse

          thank you. i’m just in need and about crying 🙂

    • Jonathan Graham

      Where are proper vaccinated/unvaccinated studies – never been done

      Judith I don’t suppose you can explain why nothing but a prospective, double-blind, placebo controlled, trial is useful evidence to answer various questions about vaccine safety?

      Because the opposite seems true. For example does your “proper” trial require a comparison between every vaccine on earth and no vaccines at all? No? Can the vaccine group have different numbers of vaccinations as long as we have a group that hasn’t had even one? Should the people with every vaccine on earth have exactly the same risk as someone who only had one.

      If not, then you have automatically validated that vaccination has a dose/response relationship to whatever disease outcome you are on about. The very microsecond you do this, you validate every single other study which compares vaccinated people against people with fewer vaccinations.

      • Ron Roy

        “It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa,
        South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they
        were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other
        disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their
        immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis,
        etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there
        were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good
        statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did.”
        –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. Dr Kalokerinos
        interview——-International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995

        • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

          As it’s been demonstrated several times Ron. Archie is just making this information up. It is unlikely that he observed this first or second hand. This isn’t the first time, in his book “Every Second Child” he clearly makes up a theory about vaccination without examining a single patient. Need the page number?

          • Ron Roy

            Every Second Child

            “THIS book presents the engrossing account of the attack, in
            large part ultimately successful, made by Dr. Archie
            Kalokerinos on the problem of the very high death rate of
            Aboriginal children in the part of New South Wales in
            which he was working. After he had recognized the problem
            and had rejected the usual explanations of the high death
            rate of the Aboriginal infants, he was led finally to the
            conclusion that the infants were suffering from scurvy, a
            deficiency of vitamin C.

            In the period between 1942 and 1961 several investiga-
            tions were reported in which it was found that people
            receiving 200 milligrams to 1000 milligrams of vitamin C –
            per day had fewer colds than people who were given an
            inactive tablet. During the last three years six more studies
            have been made of people who receive either vitamin C or
            an inactive tablet over a period of weeks or months, and
            they were observed to see whether the incidence and sever–
            ity of colds were affected. It was found in every one of
            these investigations that an added intake of vitamin C leads
            to a decrease in the number of colds and also to a decrease
            in the amount of illness caused by colds. Moreover, it has
            been found that there is a decrease in the incidence of non-
            respiratory diseases, as well. We may conclude from these
            studies that an improvement in health may in general be
            expected to result from an increased intake of vitamin C.

            …and that in addition the deficiency in
            vitamin C is exacerbated by immunizations and inocula-
            tions, since it is known that immunization and inoculation
            lead to destruction of vitamin C.”

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Ron, spamming a book review doesn’t change that Archie – in that very book – just one day decides that the vaccines are causing a problem. Without examining one patient. Without doing any kind of research.

            I take it that your refusing my offer to provide the exact page and quote means that you already know this is true. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            “It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we vanquished smallpox with
            vaccines when only 10% of the population were ever vaccinated.”
            Dr. Glen Dettman, AMM, BA, PhD, & Archie Kalokerinos, MD, 1986.
            (p. 36) In the late 1960’s and 1970s, Dr. Kalokerinos and Dr. Dettman
            discovered that some 500 out of every 1,000 Aboriginal children were
            dying in the Northern Territories. The cause was a type of toxic shock
            reaction, complicated by vitamin C deficiency, often brought on by immunisation.
            In a two-year period without vaccination and with improved nutrition
            not one child died. (p.43).http://medicinekillsmillions.com/not_yet_used/vaccination_doctors.htm

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            I’m not sure what those page numbers are supposed to represent but Page 43 in my copy of Archie’s book “Every Second Child” is in the middle of a chapter called “About a dog” and doesn’t mention vaccination.

            Unlike whatever random person you are referencing. I’ve already provided the exact and ONLY quote where Archie impugns vaccination in that book

          • Ron Roy

            Was Johnny there to observe what Archie did? No. Oh the how can he comment on what Archie said? Oh Johnny will never admit just how bad vaccines are. Here’s an interview with Archie on that same matter:Kalokerinos: At first it was just a simple clinical observation. I
            observed that many infants, after they received routine vaccines like
            tetanus, diphtheria, polio, whooping cough or whatever, became ill. Some
            became extremely ill, and in fact some died. It was an observation, It
            was not a theory. So my first reaction was to look at the reasons why
            this happened. Of course I found it was more likely to happen in infants
            who were ill at the time of receiving a vaccine, or infants who had
            been ill recently, or infants who were incubating an infection. Of
            course in the early stages of incubation there is no way whatsoever that
            anyone can detect the disease. They turn up later on. Furthermore, some
            of the reactions to the vaccines were not those that were listed in the
            standard literature.http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/an-interview-with-dr-archie-kalokerinos-md/

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Was Johnny there to observe what Archie did?

            Why would I need to be?We have Archie’s words fresh in his book as opposed to his post-hoc rationalizations.

          • Ron Roy

            Examine? He witnessed the damage. Did you? No. Oh then shut your mouth.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Nope. His book is very clear – you should read it. The only place he talks about the relationship is when he’s nowhere near a patient and after he comes up with this idea he decides that he doesn’t need to examine the group of patents he was on his way to see.

            The correct term is that he hypothesized that certain children were sick because of vaccines but since he ran no tests, consulted no texts and performed no analysis. As far as his account goes he just up and decided that this was the case. His conclusion isn’t very trustworthy.

            Like I’ve said before, if you like pretending that Archie is a flawless deity just so you can keep on believing his nonsense. That’s your business but it’s unreasonable to expect any rational person to buy into it.

          • shay simmons

            You expect Ron to actually read his cites? Optimist!

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Is there proof that the children died because they had the measles vaccine, and not because they were able to die of other stuff because measles couldn’t get there first?

          • Sophie

            I had never heard of Dr Kalokerinos so I googled that copypasta.

            He’s one of those vaccines-are-genocide loons popular on the conspiracy blogs.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Explains a lot, I looked up that quote ages ago, and the first link I found was from Whale.to

          • ciaparker2

            It wasn’t just the measles vaccine but also the DPT and the polio vaccine. 50% of the vaccinated aboriginal children were dying, a much higher rate than before the vaccination campaign was carried out. And when they stopped vaxxing them they stopped dying.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Your proof of this?

          • ciaparker2

            I wish I could buy Dr. Kalokerinos’ book Every Second Child (because 50% of those vaxxed were killed by it, because they were malnourished on white bread etc., and vitamin C deficient, etc.), but it’s too expensive. However, you can look at the following:

            http://treatyrepublic.net/content/could-tragic-chapter-australian-history-be-unwittingly-repeated-seasonal-flu-vaccination

            Also Amazon review: by A. S. Templetonon April 3, 1999

            Format: Paperback|Verified
            Purchase

            Dr. Kalokerinos, a medical GP
            working in the Australian outback with the Aborigines, discovered that vitamin
            C prevents sudden infant deaths (SIDS) brought on by malnutrition and by the
            introduction of immunization shots. Infants near death were revived by vitamin
            C injections, and the 50% death rate (hence the title) in the region dropped to
            near zero during his 8-year practice. Deaths rose to former levels after he was
            drummed out by the Australian health authorities.

            Dr. K found his clinical observations and conclusions ridiculed & ignored
            by the authorities, and still suffers hostility, persecution and shunning by
            the medical establishment.

            His work is deservedly praised by other medical heretics including Pauling,
            Klenner, Cathcart and others who challenge the myths that shots are
            health-giving and that vitamin C is good only for preventing scurvy.

            A great book by a great doctor, it should be read by every caring current or
            future parent. Pediatricians and MDs in general too.

            https://www.amazon.com/Every-Second-Child-Archie-Kalokerinos/dp/0879832509

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So basically all of this doctor’s proof is in a book that you have to pay to buy, rather than published in a medical journal. Right.

          • shay simmons

            You would love to buy Kalikerinos’ book even though he lied about how he came to his conclusions?

            Figures.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            His words went round and round my mind. Then suddenly it clicked. ‘We have stepped up the immunisation campaigns,’ Ralph had said. My God! I had known for years that they (vaccinations) could be dangerous, but had I underestimated this ? Of course I had. There was no need to go to Alice Springs. I knew.

            Every Second Child Pg 102.

            Notice that Archie doesn’t run a single test, examine a single patient, do any statistical analysis or consult a single textbook or scientific paper. He simply believes this is the case and that is that. In fact he claims right here that there is absolutely zero need to go and examine any other data.

            Archie’s opinion is based entirely on his own ideas, not one shred of real scientific evidence and in consequentially simply untrustworthy.

          • Ron Roy

            If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and looks like a duck guess what IT IS A DUCK. In this case vaccine damage.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            That’s not how medical science works.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Well unless, after a movie you go and ask the projectionist how they fit all those people into the projector. Then even you know you’re making a logical error.

          • I’m just imagining Ron at a magic show now – how did that lady survive being cut in half?

          • Jonathan Graham

            …or if he were to watch late night telly and end up believing in all sorts of miracle cures and….

            wait….

    • ILoveJellybeans

      “Analyzing five years’ worth of private health insurance data on children ages 6-15, these scientists found that young people vaccinated in the previous three to 12 months were significantly more likely to be diagnosed with certain neuropsychiatric disordersthan their non-vaccinated counterparts.”
      .
      That totally makes sense….
      .
      1. Where do children receive vaccinations?
      .
      2. Who does a parent go to when they are concerned about their child’s development?
      .
      At a typical check up, where vaccinations are given, the doctor will do more than just vaccinate the child. They will also speak with the parents and ask them about other aspects of their child’s development. The parent might not realise something is different about their kid until the doctor asks them about their child’s development and it turns out that their child isn’t doing the same things as their peers are, and it is also a good time for a parent to bring up a concern to the doctor.
      .
      Also, unvaccinated children are more likely to have parents who distrust medical professionals, which means they are less likely to trust their doctor’s advice or take their concerns seriously. With some conditions, like ADHD, theyre also more likely to consider it overdiagnosed and think that most kids with it don’t have it, they just want to sell them medication. They are more likely to choose someone like a naturopath or a chiropractor as their first port of call for anything health related (or the internet), but would they be able to accurately diagnose autism, and would they make the right referrals or suggestions considering they are also suspicious of the mainstream medical community?

    • Jonathan Graham

      one of seven neuropsychiatric disorders: anorexia nervosa, anxiety disorder, attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, major depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and tic disorder.

      http://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/225946/fpsyt-08-00003-HTML/image_m/fpsyt-08-00003-t002.jpg

      Are you willing to accept that vaccines have a protective effect on bipolar disorder and depression?

      Personally this data looks a little noisy. For example ADHD shows about the same effect size as broken bone. Are we claiming that vaccines cause broken bones? If not, then we should discard that.

      As for some of the other data points, is there real reason to believe that disorders like anorexia nervosa develop in two weeks? That has one of the strongest HR’s and also the smallest sample.

      There are some good ideas in the approach here but the end result isn’t very compelling.

    • Re: “Where are proper vaccinated/unvaccinated studies – never been done.”

      Feel free to read the following:
      https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v81/n4/full/pr2016272a.html
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2260220

      • Judith

        I have – the first is hidden by a pay wall.
        The second is the KIGGS study. The unvaccinated represented a very small fraction of it, 94 children out of 17,641 vaccinated children which makes it impossible to do any meaningful statistics on things such as autism which has a prevalence rate of roughly 1 in 110. Secondly, it is possible that at least some of the children for whom no record of vaccination existed might have still received a vaccine which went unrecorded. Thirdly, a lot of the data was based on a survey, which relied on parent’s memories, thus it is possible that prevalence rates may have been under, or over, reported. Fourthly, the survey did not ask for date of disease onset, therefore some vaccinated children could have gotten sick before being vaccinated and still be included in the vaccinated prevalence data.

        However it did show that Asthma, hay fever and neuro dermatitis were much less amongst the unvaccinated.

        and the third is a tiny study of only 25 children – totally useless.
        by the way

        A German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have at least 2 to 5 times more diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children.

        http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/new-study-vaccinated-children-have-2-to-5-times-more-diseases-and-disorders-than-unvaccinated-children/

    • Brian

      Judith is copy/pasting again… a source that if she understood it, actually proves her wrong.

      Do vaccines cause broken bones Judith?

    • shay simmons

      Proper vax/unvax study — you mean, like this one? Small wonder no ethical researcher wants to be associated with studies that endanger children.

      “Twenty five children who had undergone their full course of childhood immunization schedule were compared with 25 children who did not have any vaccinations for a period of five years. Parameters for comparison were measles, pertussis, poliomyelitis, tetanus and tuberculosis. Out of the 25 vaccinated children, only one child had mild measles at 2 1/2 years while 4 had suspected whooping cough at different points of the study period but not clinically diagnosed as pertussis. Among the unvaccinated group, 2 died of measles before the age of 3 years while 11 others went down with measles during an outbreak in 1986. An unvaccinated child also died of tetanus within the study period. In this paper we advocate the total integration of every community in the ongoing Expanded Programme for Immunization in Nigeria.”

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2260220

    • shay simmons

      “Check out Table 2. It is the very definition of a p-hacking table. All the bold results are “statistically significant.” Just peruse the table. You don’t even have to look that closely to see that the receipt of any vaccine within 3, 6, and 12 months is correlated, both negatively and positively, with almost every condition examined, including broken bones and open wounds. (Yes, if you accept this study’s results you have to conclude just as much that vaccines are a risk factor for broken bones! A modest one, true, but a risk factor nonetheless. Yes, that’s sarcasm.” David Gorski

  • Mike Stevens

    I see the batcall has gone out to summon the ever-ready band of antivaxers to post their nonsense.

    • ILoveJellybeans

      Yeah, Age of Autism sure is sending out their shills! :p

      • Judith

        We can see the merry band of pharma toadies here to sprout their mis-information.

        • Cathy

          / @mod This is targeted harassment.

        • shay simmons

          Oh, do please point out the misinformation , Judith.

          • Ron Roy

            All your posts. Is that enough or should I include those of your comrades in arms?

          • shay simmons

            So, basically, you have (As usual) nothing.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            You could point to some specific sentence of Shay’s or Mike’s and then provide statistically strong evidence as to why that sentence is incorrect. You know, just like people do to the things you say all the time. 🙂

            Otherwise you might as well say: “I got nothing”

          • shay simmons

            Feelz. He’s got feelz.

          • Ron Roy

            Everything coming out of their mouths is a lie.Thousands of people on Facebook have posted comments about their vaccine injured children but according to you and your ilk they’re all mistaken. You Johnny and your ilk have absolutely no conscience and will defend the satanic practice of vaccination until you meet your maker.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Everything coming out of their mouths is a lie.

            …and despite that wealth of material you can’t point to one single comment and provide statistically strong evidence supporting your view that what they’ve said is wrong.

            Kind of implies that you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

            Thousands of people on Facebook have posted comments about their vaccine injured children

            Thousands of people believe in Witchcraft, Psychics, various deities, alien abductions. Are you claiming that as long as there are thousands of people making a claim then it’s true. You realize that many of those people I just mentioned claim things which are mutually exclusive. Right?

          • Ron Roy

            Like I said Johnny will never admit he’s wrong. Gee I wonder why…….. Oh$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Merck

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Satanic? What?
            .
            Im on so many somewhat bizarre Facebook groups that scrolling down my news feed I can probably find a few thousand people who claim that they visited a psychic who got in contact with their dead relative and got all the information right, or who claim to have seen a ghost. The human memory is fallible, we cannot see the full information to validate that, which is why anecdotes mean nothing compared to scientific data.

          • Ron Roy

            Leave it to a heartless money grubbing bitch to compare those who believe in psychics to those who have witnessed the damage done to their babies by vaccines.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Who pissed in your cereal this morning?
            .
            Im just saying, Facebook anecdotes are worthless, as we cant see what is really going on (or even know whether it is true).
            .
            Some people do genuinely think they’ve had a paranormal experience. Nomatter how many people say this on Facebook, science still says that there are explanations behind why people have paranormal experiences. It doesn’t mean they are lying, but there was a logical explanation for their experience that they did not think of when they had that experience.
            .
            Some people do genuinely think that psychics have told them things that are spot on, but science says that this is impossible, and there is a logical explanation behind psychics. We don’t know how many hits there actually were, because we don’t have a transcript of what was said, so we don’t know whether there were wrong guesses made that the person forgot about, as the brain priorities the hits.
            .
            Some people genuinely think vaccines cause autism, but science says that this is not true, and there is a logical explanation for why people believe this. Its all about the timing of the MMR compared to the time autism is most commonly noticed, the large numbers involved in the statistics making any minority, even 0.00001% of the population look huge, and the distortion of the statistics by collating them all together.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            Ron, seriously. You can’t observe vaccine damage except at the population level. There is no test you can run where the result is “Vaccines caused this”. So all someone who claims they have observed someone being damaged by vaccines is really just saying they have observed something bad happening after someone was vaccinated.

            Which is exactly how people end up believing in psychic phenomena and witchcraft and the like. They see something happen after they “cast a spell” or “try to read minds” and conclude that they (or their magic as the case may be) is causing this.

            There really isn’t much of a difference.

          • Michele

            Quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ll read today.

            NHS provides financial help to those who observed vaccine damage, where the result demonstrably is “Vaccines caused this”.

            https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment/eligibility

            At the bottom is a link titled “Is there anything wrong with this page?” Please share your commentary there.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            NHS provides financial help to those who observed vaccine damage, where the result demonstrably is “Vaccines caused this”.

            If observing a negative outcome at some point after vaccination is a test. Then you should be able to cite research demonstrating it’s false positive/false negative rate. Of course such research would require some mechanistic understanding and determination of vaccine damage. Otherwise how could you validate the test?

            You and I both know that there is no such research on observation or even research which could validate observation. So in this particular case observation clearly isn’t a test. You and I also know that there are no other tests for vaccine involvement in an injury. So with this in mind I’d suggest that what NHS is doing is providing compensation to someone who’s injury has some elevated likelihood of being caused by vaccination.

            What’ might be confusing you is phrasing like: “You could get a payment if you’re severely disabled and your disability was caused by vaccination” which, to some might imply there is some way to determine that vaccines caused this injury without any doubt. What it’s actually saying is something like “You could get payment if you’re severely disabled and there is some evidence for the involvement of vaccines here“.

            As we’ve established that there simply is no test for vaccine involvement but even if there was. It would still have a false positive rate which means we would still have doubt – perhaps significant doubt if the test isn’t very sensitive.

          • Michele
          • Jonathan Graham

            Perhaps you’re thinking of “If you’ve lost an argument, respond with an oblique quote”

          • Michele

            No, precious. I’m thinking you’re one of those narcissists who believes they’re much smarter than they really are.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Oh I see! The expression you were thinking of was: “If you’ve lost the argument, attack the person”.

            Because if that wasn’t your point. You could have pointed out a specific thing about my statements about the NHS that was incorrect and we could be talking about that.

          • Michele

            No, I said exactly what I meant.

            If you’re as smart as you think you are, reread what you wrote. You can find the flaw yourself. Your argument is fallacious on its face.

          • Jonathan Graham

            In other words, you can’t point out a specific problem. Whereas I was able to produce a specific rebuttal to your comment.

            So let’s go back a step. My comment to Ron Roy was in reference to his frequent statements and/or implication that people observe vaccine damage.

            My statement is whatever vaccine damage exists, you can’t observe it except at the population level and only in a probabilistic sense.

            Can you refute that?

          • Michele

            I don’t care about Ron Roy or his idiot ravings. From my point of view, you are both equally annoying.

            This statement is fallacious on its face.

            My statement is whatever vaccine damage exists, you can’t observe it except at the population level and only in a probabilistic sense.

            If you don’t understand the term, Google it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            This point is fallacious on its face.

            Please explain how this is true.

          • Note that NHS provides financial help to everyone via health care free at the point of use. That’s kind of the point.

          • sabelmouse

            yup!

          • AutismDadd

            Smellybeans is block worthy

          • Michele

            It’s a fair comparison.

          • sabelmouse

            unless they’re anecdotes of someone’s cousin loosing hearing in one ear from measles.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Anecdotes are worthless in science, but it doesn’t mean that every anecdote is wrong, just that it is tainted by human bias.
            .
            Some anecdotes are of things that are not supported by current scientific evidence (I saw a ghost, I heard my name being called when nobody was there, the psychic contacted by dead aunt and knew her name!), where science has no proof of this, but reasonable rational explanations to explain why people experience those things. Its possible the person believes they had this experience, but it does not constitute scientific proof because there is no scientific evidence backing it up.
            .
            Other anecdotes are supported by scientific evidence that the this is plausible (my cousin was a smoker and he got lung cancer, my aunt had quintuplets, I am allergic to nuts). We know these things happen, there is plenty of scientific evidence to back this up. The correlation between smoking and cancer has been proven. We know that multiple births happen, although they are rare. We know how allergies work and that a nut allergy is one of the most common kinds of food allergy.
            .
            We know that measles causes hearing loss. We know how it happens. It can happen when the virus infects the inner ear. Hearing loss can also be caused by encephalitis, which can be a complication of measles too. If someone says that measles caused their hearing loss, we can generally accept that this is the case and assume that they are not lying (unless you know this person well enough to know that they never had measles)

            http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Hearing-impairment/Pages/Causes.aspx

          • sabelmouse

            i’m getting bored with your useless splain,splain,splain.

            you’re either brainwashed or shilling.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Why are you here then, this is what this thread is for.
            .
            Youre not getting bored because you think I am a brainwashed shill, youre getting bored because I wont bend to your will and just accept youre right.

          • sabelmouse

            i’m getting bored because you endlessly splain as though nobody else knew anything while you’re a baby who has discovered this recently.
            at first it was amusing, then ridiculous, now tedious.
            i don’t care what you think, just stop babbling.
            and half the time you don’t even get the pint.
            have you ever considered animal rights veganism?
            your qualities will be appreciated in that religion.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            You don’t have to take part in this thread though. Why not go do something else. If you want to change minds, maybe step up your game and post peer reviewed scientific studies instead of anecdotes, opinions and shill accusations.
            .
            No, I have never really considered veganism. I have a friend who is a vegan and I respect her beliefs (and I don’t eat meat in front of her), but I do not follow them myself. I have no problem with eating meat, as long as the treatment of the animal in its life and its death, is as humane as possible, and that endangered animals shouldn’t be eaten.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s the preaching that you’re so good at.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            That’s just the way I type. Everyone comments on it, even when I am not debating a point. If I write an email that is less than a paragraph or two people would probably assume I had been kidnapped and replaced with an imposter.

          • sabelmouse

            brevity has it’s uses.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            It does. I am a woman of very few words, unless it is typed.

          • sabelmouse

            i guess talking like that would go down even less well.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            I would be very wordy if I could, but my brain to mouth filter is a bit inefficient. There’s so much words rushing round but my mouth cant keep up so it kind of gets blocked up. In writing, I can write them all down as they come, and then reorganise and reword so it makes more sense.

          • sabelmouse

            ok. i still recommend some editing, and less self important ‘splaining.

          • And so does non-brevity.

          • shay simmons

            Only if you actually have something to say, sabel.

          • SciGuy

            As does specificity.

          • sabelmouse

            and that.

          • And sometimes, if we’re not sure, we might decide to believe people or not based on what the consequences are one way or the other.

            Take the “I am allergic to nuts” person. If we believe them and act accordingly and they’re not actually allergic to nuts…then…what…we wasted some time thoroughly cleaning stuff. If we don’t believe them and they are….big problem.

          • AutismDadd

            Buzzcut Graham is beyond help. Another science addict who can’t break the habit.

          • Ron Roy

            Johnny loves to use the word statistics. It make him look smarter that his cohorts.

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            I take it you’re admitting that you can’t point to even one single statement of Shay’s or Mke’s and provide statistically strong evidence against it. Right?

        • Brian

          Is anyone on this thread associated with a pharmaceutical company, and what is your evidence?

        • sabelmouse

          following the vaccine safety advocates around the internet/social media.

        • AutismDadd

          Motley Crew and the motley spew

      • sabelmouse

        shilly baby showing her true colours.

        • Jazz Let

          Do you actualy have any evidence of your position or is all you can do to make unsupported accusations against those you disagree with?

          • sabelmouse

            do you know her well?

          • Jazz Let

            Oh I’ve seen your comments in various places and you never have any evidence, just unsupported smears, so I’m not inclined to believe anything you say, but if you have evidence ILoveJellyBeans is paid to make their comments do tell.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          I was just kidding cause there’s a lot of posters on the thread who work for Age of Autism…..however there is also another poster who promotes Vaxxed in every comment, who when questioned admitted she is a personal friend of Wakefield, so I wasn’t that far away from the truth.

          • sabelmouse

            aha.

          • ciaparker2

            There are NO posters who work for Age of Autism. Age of Autism pays NO ONE to comment anywhere.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Are you sure about that, because two of the first posters on the thread, which had 10 comments when I found it, actually signed their comments with “Age of Autism”. Anne is the media editor and John is the UK editor. That’s what I was joking about. No idea if they are paid to do so, its just something I happened to notice.

          • Michele
          • ciaparker2

            You’re right, I hadn’t seen those comments by Anne and John. However, they do not get paid by Age of Autism for commenting.

          • Mike Stevens

            So it’s ok they are paid by AoA, as long as their payment is not related to comments?
            So if I were employed by GSK, that is fine by you, as long as they “don’t pay me to comment”?????
            SHeesh, Cia, what a mangled bunch of knicker logic.

            PS: what on earth do you think someone paid to be a “media editor” does exactly, if not post comments on social and other published media?

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t know if they are paid by AoA. It wouldn’t matter to me if they were, they work hard to bring us the latest news about vaccines and autism. Those of us who have had articles published at AoA have not been paid for it. And I don’t care about that either. We do what we do out of love for our vaccine-damaged children and for all the rest.

            So you’re saying that you are employed by GSK to do what you’ve done for the last four years?

          • Brian

            “I don’t know if they are paid by AoA. It wouldn’t matter to me if they were” -cynthia parker

            So you’re a shill defender, huh?

          • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

            It wouldn’t matter to me if they were

            These people work for a company which comes closer to non-existence every time someone stops believing that vaccines cause autism. Right? Every single person brings them considerably closer to being out of a job.

            Since the group of people who accept AoA’s premises are considerably smaller than those who reject them. You should be more concerned about the bias of AoA employees than medical doctors or even employees of pharmaceutical companies.

            Rationally speaking that is.

          • Mike Stevens

            No. Read my post.
            Nobody other than the NHS employs or pays me.
            Using your own reasoning and standards however, you and Judith should not care or have a problem with someone being paid by GSK to post comments.

          • kfunk937

            Semi-OT (but really, when is highlighting anti-vaxxer thinking and behaviour OT?):

            I’m beginning to be concerned about cia and Judith’s friend, suz norkan, who hasn’t commented in over seven months. It’s not that her contributions are particularly missed (being mainly killfiled), but I hope she’s alright.

            Aside: The comment is bookmarked under the title “In which suz offers a paean to Anand following his self-pwn”. I wasn’t sure if you’d seen it already, but you’re entitled to take a bow as you feature prominently.

            Aside2: Still no sign of the promised ground-breaking publication in Nature. Nor anywhere else, AFAICT. Shocking.

          • FallsAngel

            I just assumed suz had been permanently banned. Certainly, I hope she’s OK, but I do not, not miss her.

          • shay simmons

            You know what happens when you invoke them, right?

          • Max Brass
          • kfunk937

            Wow, I musta missed all that meta.

          • Max Brass

            You have to scroll down half-a-dozen comments in Fifi’s history to catch it. You’re also missing her comments at kpcc where I had to go in and do a clean up on aisle everywhere, but that’s a whole ‘nother thing.

          • Proponent

            “I’m beginning to be concerned about cia and Judith’s friend, suz norkan, who hasn’t commented in over seven months. It’s not that her contributions are particularly missed (being mainly killfiled), but I hope she’s alright.”

            They had a falling out.. and ciaparker2 removed suz from her Disqus Friends and Followers lists.

            Which, I think upset suz to a large degree and she simply stopped commenting/posting as a result of and at that time.

          • FallsAngel

            Thank God! Of the three of them, she was the most disruptive; rarely posted about vaccines, just general insults and foolishness.

          • Mike Stevens

            Seems she decided not to post anymore after that comment, what with her statement that she will watch his work, but only be on disqus in spirit. She always was rather cryptic and never stated anything clearly.
            …Beats me.
            And 42 upvotes? That’s more than her upvotes from all her other posts in total.
            She seems to have completely fallen for Anand’s pretentious bs though.

          • shay simmons

            Only if by “cryptic” you mean “incoherent.”

          • Mike Stevens

            Also regarding the Suz post – I saw she had 42 upvotes, nearly all from spam accounts trying to get people to click on pron related sites.
            Very odd.

          • kfunk937

            That caught my eye, too.

          • kfunk937

            Tangentially (because the site blocked a link), that harrellgraham with whom you’re speaking? He appears to be a full-blown HIV/AIDS denialist, “published” on Illuminati News. What a shock.

            Congrats. You hit the big time!

          • Mister Atoz

            My claim to lame is that I believe I was talking with Scott Adams on a political website one night. He was saying some very incomprehensible Scott Adams-ish things (and is known to use aliases) and I directly asked the poster if he was him. He made no effort to deny it and, IIRC, he admitted to being him indirectly.

            While proofreading this uncovered no spelling errors, it did make how boring this comment is quite clear to even the author.

            But, what the heck…

            *Post as Mister Atoz*

          • kfunk937

            Always good to hear from you. Besides, boring is a fine change of pace. So is sane, for that matter.

          • Mister Atoz

            I am trying to convince myself that only one of those inferences applies to me. Wish me luck!

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh my!
            Published in “Illuminati News”, no less.
            I guess he has also published articles on Chemtrails, the fake moon landings, and the KGB’s assasination of Lady Diana?

          • kfunk937

            I wouldn’t be surprised, but there was nothing else under that ‘nym (a LN,FN homage to some USian footballer). I guess a repub of what looks to have been an email designed for the spam filter didn’t lead to a guest contributor slot there, after all. 😂😂😂

          • Von Braun

            …guest contributor slot…

            Yes please.

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh well, looks like I have been banned from posting on “Natural Blaze”.
            Guess the truth hurt, huh?

          • So have I, if it’s any consolation.

          • Von Braun

            He appears to be a full-blown HIV/AIDS denialist…

            Karla knows that’s real. She still has spots from the Queen concert she went to at Wembley.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Sooooo people who post articles on Age of Autism do so out of their love for the children they believe are vaccine damaged (wow I hate that term, its so dehumanising to the poor kids), but people who become advocates for vaccines are doing so because they are shills?
            .
            What about the parents who advocate for vaccines because their kid died of a vaccine preventable disease, like the parents of little Riley who died of pertussis?
            .
            Double standards.

          • I really don’t care so long as people use a consistent definition but others are free to disagree with me.

          • shay simmons
          • FallsAngel

            If they’re doing it on work time, they’re being paid.

          • shay simmons

            Dachel’s job is to comment, parker.

          • Mike Stevens

            I don’t know about John, but Anne is certainly paid to post media comments. It’s in the person spec of her job description as media editor.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            This just gets even more hilarious.
            .
            Antivaxxers accuse everyone who disagrees with them as being a shill, but among posters on this thread, there is a personal friend of Andrew Wakefield who only talks about Vaxxed, and now an actual media editor from an antivax site whose job description is literally to post on social media.
            .
            Yet, all the evidence the antivaxxers have for everyone else being shills is that people disagree with them and people couldn’t possibly disagree with them because theyre wrong, it has to be a conspiracy.

          • shay simmons

            Which is it, parker? Either they aren’t paid, or you don’t think it matters if they are paid?

            Make up your mind.

          • To be fair, it’s entirely possible to think that it doesn’t matter since it doesn’t affect the truth or falsity of the claims and also feel the need to point out for the record that no, they’re not paid.

            This is likely giving Cia too much credit but in general terms, that is possible.

          • shay simmons

            Yeah, but parker thinks that way because she is consistently inconsistent.

          • Hence “this is likely giving Cia too much credit.” but yes, I just felt the need to point out the possible non-contradictory version.

      • Ron Roy

        Look at who’s calling the kettle black.lol

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Why? I was just noticing that Age of Autism editors were the first posters on the thread.

    • Judith

      Would you and your band of merry pharma bat boys like to have the forum all to yourself Mike so your disinformation is not challenged? I don’t think that is fair do you…

      • shay simmons

        Where has Mike misinformed anyone, Judith? Post the statement and your evidence.

        • I reccomend Judith follows the PEE model.

          Point.
          Evidence
          Explain how the Evidence supports your Point.

          • shay simmons

            Kinda hard for her to PEE when she hasn’t any EEs.

          • Of course she has – that should be done before making the claim. Of course, in the sceranio where she hasn’t…well…hoist by her own petard.

          • shay simmons

            I think you may be over-estimating her capabilities.

          • FallsAngel

            Agreed. She’s been going on about this for years! She’s been “educated”.

          • Judith

            “She” couldn’t really care what the pharma mob thinks or says..

          • Judith, ‘she’ is a quite reasonable assumption for someone who has chosen a feminine ‘nym. If you identify as something other than female, then maybe changing your ‘nym would avoid this confusion in future?

            That said, you’ll have a point when you have provided evidence for that “pharma mob”. Until then, baseless shill gambits? You know the drill.

      • Jonathan Graham 森On Vacation森

        Judith, I probably speak for most sentient beings who have interacted with you when I say that we would like, far more than anything is for you to be able to actually engage on an issue which includes admitting when you’re wrong about some fact/idea and then cease to promote said fact/idea forevermore.

      • Got evidence of pharma bat yet?

    • Ron Roy

      You pro-vaxx sub humans have sold yourselves for 30 pieces of silver.

      • ILoveJellybeans

        Got any proof of this?
        .
        Also people who disagree with you are human too. Youre not special, youre just like everyone else.

      • shay simmons

        Says the distributor for North Country Nutritionals.

        • Ron Roy

          Wrong again.

          • shay simmons

            I guess your business profile was wrong, eh?

    • AutismDadd

      Someone has to counter your lies Mike.

  • Brooke Dunne

    Next time you see a mom carrying baby or a little one in a stroller, a child too young to be immunized, remember this.

    This is Naomi. She was 14 months old and nearly due her MMR when she caught measles during the 2000 outbreak. She contracted encephalitis. For the next 11 months her parents watched her degenerate. The last 3 weeks she struggled for life in the ICU.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22c1e38db73475716a10b8f72750cb75f15d96c63d800d332e7e5a4b75d10497.jpg

    • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

      What the fμck Brooke!!! Now you’re going to make me post a photo of somewhone with vaccine-induced paralysis.http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Zeda%20Pingel%20After.jpg
      I’ll take the fμcking measles!

      • Brooke Dunne

        Please take a moment to review the Terms & Conditions for this website, Travis.

        https://www.spectator.co.uk/terms/

        • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

          Please take a moment to fμck-off.

          • Ron Roy

            She probably couldn’t even do that right.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, FP. I would have put up a hundred upvotes had I been able.

          • sabelmouse

            🙂

      • Judith

        Yep give me the measles any day … and thanks for the best laugh I have had all day…

        • Judith, given that measles is harmless from your POV….why on earth are you afraid of Measles’ puny younger triplet sisters?

    • Cathy

      Imagine what her Mom and Dad went through. It’s just heartbreaking.

      • Rich M.

        That is sad. So many people don’t understand that this infection can have such serious life-long consequences.

        Sarah Clow caught measles as a child and was left with lasting disabilities including deafness, partial sight and learning difficulties. Her mother Audrey talks about the impact this has had on Sarah and the whole family.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2AWjToUJs8

        • Sophie

          I think this might be one of those instances where a little bit of knowledge can be really dangerous, in that well-educated people think that their “research” (a.k.a. Google searches) is on the same level as the data that experts have been compiling and analyzing for decades.

          • Michele

            The backlash against medical professionals in general is pretty unsettling to me. Science is not our enemy, and those who spend a solid decade learning about how a body works are not some nefarious organization.

          • “”A little learning is a dang’rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again.”

      • Judith

        Heartbreaking – let’s all give a moments silence to the children in Sri Lanka among many

        237 deaths by Pentavalent vaccine and still counting

        Three deaths in Sri Lanka prompted the government to suspend the use of the vaccine. Under Right to Information we know that up to August 2016 there have been 237 deaths reported to the government here within 72 hours of vaccination with Pentavalent. We examined deaths in states which were giving DPT and Pentavalent vaccine concurrently. We were careful to do this so that comparisons are done in the state only after AEFI surveillance was improved in the state with introduction of Pentavalent vaccine. Deaths with Pentavalent were double that with DPT. It is often said deaths following vaccination are coincidental natural deaths and it is the normal rate of sudden unexplained deaths (SIDS). If all deaths with DPT are natural deaths and that is the standard SIDS rate, then the excess deaths with Pentavalent vaccine must be caused by this vaccine.

        http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/7314-237-deaths-pentavalent-vaccine-and-still-counting

        • Ron Roy

          This is what happened to people all Over the world BECAUSEof the measles vaccines: “It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa,
          South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they
          were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other
          disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their
          immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis,
          etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there
          were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good
          statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did.”
          –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. Dr Kalokerinos
          interview——-International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995

          • Appeal to authority won’t work.

        • Except that developed countries don’t use DPT.

        • AutismDadd

          Amen

    • Mike Stevens

      And Naomi’s tragic experience is not unique. On average, around one child in a thousand who catches measles will end up this way, even in countries with the best available health systems on the planet.

      • Rich M.

        This is true. I was just reading about the outbreak in Romania. 30 people dead, most of them children.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8a7db262bdb75786877bfd5c1764366f37afcace512360ca08a300b12764fdd3.jpg

        • Judith

          Can you provide links to this – can’t find any reference to it at all.

          • Michele

            Do you have the results for Romania + Measles + 2017?

            Of course Judith will probably say it’s a conspiracy :/

          • Nope, I was just responding to Judith’s dismissal of the meme. I dare say I could find it though.

          • Michele

            I think she was denying the 30 deaths in Romania.

            Either way, look at her posting history. She’s batshit crazy

          • whimsical

            Good grief, I thought she was just a troll, but you’re right, someone needs to grab the butterfly net!

          • AutismDadd

            So you can’t debate Judith like an adult…check

          • AutismDadd

            Hardly fool. Your contribution (buh wah ha ha) shows you are no match for Judith.

          • shay simmons

            About 2,810,000 results (0.60 seconds)

          • AutismDadd

            Get reading then

          • Mike Stevens

            Judith, here is a link to a report from 6 weeks ago, when the death toll was 25 measles deaths in Romania.
            http://outbreaknewstoday.com/romania-measles-outbreak-5000-cases-since-2016-vaccine-shortages-reported-56702/
            It has since risen to over 30 deaths.
            https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-06-measles-outbreak-romania.html

            In this outbreak, 97% of measles cases are in the unvaccinated.

          • AutismDadd

            So 3% vaccinated? Did they die?

          • shay simmons

            Can you provide links to this – can’t find any reference to it at all.

            Gee, Judith; typing “In Italy, the measles case tally has reached 3,074. ” produces the the following:
            About 3,070 results (1.01 seconds)

          • AutismDadd

            Enjoy reading 3,000 results then.

        • Michele

          It’s up to 31 today. In Italy, the measles case tally has reached 3,074. On Thursday a six-year-old boy with leukaemia died. He aught the measles from an older brother that the parents had decided not to vaccinate. RIP little angel.

          • AutismDadd

            And where did the leukaemia come from? MMR can cause blood disorders.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s 2 deaths in Italy now from measles.

            But that’s ok, because they are “foreign” according to Cia and Judith, so they don’t matter.

          • shay simmons

            They were probably malnourished as well. And got terrible nursing care. If they’d only been kept in a darkened room and given vitamin C. Or is it vitamin A?

          • Mike Stevens

            I also think they must have been refugees/asylum seekers who crossed the Med from Libya by boat to Italy. We all know how weak people with dark skin are when it comes to the effects of disease…
            Basically, I think they would tick all of Cia’s boxes for people she doesn’t care two hoots for, and whose deaths she would consider “no big deal”.

          • shay simmons

            That would include everyone who has ever died of a VPD, you know that — right?

          • Ron Roy

            You never mention people who die of VCDs. VCDs vaccine caused diseases.

          • shay simmons

            Gosh, I wonder if that’s because vaccine injuries (and deaths) are so rare — except in the imaginations of people who are convinced that millions of healthcare providers, researchers, epidemiologists, missionaries and public health workers are all engaged in a massive and decades-long worldwide conspiracy.

          • Ron Roy

            Rare I know of four and I could say five if I were to include a suicide by someone whose brain was damaged by vaccines. All within 30 miles of a sparsely populated area.

          • shay simmons

            I believe I know of four

            FTFY. And how many of these deaths have been medically confirmed as having been caused by vaccines? Your county coroner must be busy.

          • Ron Roy

            I learned about three of these cases by reading about them in a local newspaper. But of course these articles were all lies ( sarcasm ).

          • shay simmons

            You didn’t answer the question.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Do you have links to the newspaper articles?
            What was the official cause of death (other than “from vaccines”)
            Which vaccine did they have?
            Who suggested it was from vaccines, the newspaper itself, you guessing, or an antivax website?
            Five doesn’t count. Suicide is not a vaccine injury, and was it proven his “brain damage” was caused by vaccines or are you just jumping to conclusions because he was autistic or something.

          • Ron Roy

            Update update. Those people I mentioned who died because of vaccines were babies I forgot about an adult friend and an acquaintance who both died from the Hep B vaccine. The doctors at Dartmouth Hitchcock told them it was the vaccine that led to their nerve disease that eventually died from.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So, the people who died because of vaccines were babies. That doesn’t tell me much, most vaccines are given to babies. What did they die of and which vaccine did they have?

          • Still no link to the local newspaper or name of the newspaper and name of locality.

          • whimsical
          • ILoveJellybeans

            That’s a shame 🙁
            .
            Would a local library not have archives of it somewhere?
            Would any other newspapers or websites have picked up the story?
            Surely there are records of it that you might be able to find somewhere.
            .
            The story isn’t wholly unbelievable in itself, its all about the details. If all of them had the same vaccine in the same time frame and died of the same cause within a few weeks (especially if the cause was rare amongst the regular population and the vaccine was the only factor in common) then a batch that was stored inappropriately or was somehow contaminated is a possibility, but if it was multiple different causes in many different time frames then the chances would be a lot less.

          • whimsical

            There is no reason at all to believe his story. It’s an obvious troll.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Yeah, its probably either made up or overexaggerated, if it was true it would be an incredibly unlikely rare thing (and doesn’t prove vaccines are unsafe), but its coming from Ron Roy, and he has an obvious agenda.

          • Ron Roy

            Speaking of agendas. Just how much does a conscience go for these days?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            A conscience isn’t something you buy, its something you develop. Babies and toddlers are naturally self centred and don’t understand empathy yet and they don’t know right from wrong, but as they grow, the ability to empathise and think of others and know right from wrong is learned. Its something mostly taught by the important adults in the child’s life, by both good role models, nurture and discipline.
            .
            Maybe one day you will find yours.

          • Ron Roy

            Politicians and doctors are notorious for accepting bribes. I call that buying their conscience.

          • shay simmons

            And you have the audit trails to prove that doctors take bribes, right?

          • Ron Roy

            A shill speaking to a troll. lol

          • That’s called a strawman, Ron.

            What was the name of the local newspaper? What was the name of the locality?

            Those are the two questions you were asked. If they’re not all lies, why can’t you answer the question?

          • whimsical

            Reading your comments, it is a bit of a game to decipher what’s your lunatic imaginings and what’s a blatant lie.

          • AutismDadd

            You forgot to say Wakefraud and liar and anti-vaxxer

          • Ron Roy

            All four.

          • shay simmons

            Great. You can provide the name of the local newspaper and the jurisdiction with no problem, then.

          • Ron Roy

            Glad you asked. The Berlin Reporter. Berlin NH 03570

          • shay simmons

            And the time frame?

          • whimsical

            Reading the comments from you and your comrades, it’s a bit of a game to decipher what’s your lunatic imaginings and what’s a blatant lie.

          • Ron Roy

            ”millions of healthcare providers, researchers, epidemiologists,
            missionaries and public health workers are all engaged in a massive and
            decades-long worldwide conspiracy.” That only shows how easily people can be bought when their livelihoods depends on silence. But then you’re familiar with that already.

          • shay simmons

            “People who dont agree with me” =/= “People who have been bought.”

          • Ron Roy

            People who constantly push health destroying vaccines are either ignorant or have been bought. Pick one shay.

          • shay simmons

            I’ll take Things That Never Happened for $500.

          • AutismDadd

            Don’t you make that a week shillin?

          • Ron Roy

            Phony studies bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies.Does that answer your question?

          • AutismDadd

            Did you notice many shills have new sock accounts like one other person is shillin?

          • Ron Roy

            Yes

          • Once you’ve demonstrated that your assertion is correct. As things stand, however,……

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Not really. Just causes more questions.
            .
            My biggest question is how you know all of these studies are fake? How do you know which studies are trustworthy and which ones are not? Have you read all those studies.

          • Jonathan Graham

            ignorant

            …and yet Ron you can’t present even one statistically strong study to support your position.

            have been bought

            …and yet despite everyone who is pro-vaccine here you can’t find one shred of documentaiton of being paid even a nickle to post here? Right?

          • Ron Roy

            Additional Articles by Roger Anghis
            Vaccines: Good or Bad?, Part 6
            Jul 09, 2017
            Read More Articles by Roger Anghis

            As we continue this study we cannot ignore the studies that
            have exposed the dangerous ‘components’ that have been found in many
            different vaccines. When we look at these ‘ingredients’ we have to ask
            why they are in a vaccine. They are toxic to the human body, known
            contaminants that are very dangerous when introduced to the human body. Using
            extremely sensitive new technologies not used in vaccine manufacturing,
            Italian scientists reported they were “baffled” by their discoveries
            which included single particles and aggregates of organic debris
            including red cells of human or possibly animal origin and metals
            including lead, tungsten, gold, and chromium, that have been linked to
            autoimmune disease and leukemia.

            In the study, published this week in the International Journal of Vaccines and Vaccination, the researchers led by Antoinetta Gatti, of the National Council of Research of Italy and the Scientific Director of Nanodiagnostics,
            say their results “show the presence of micro- and nano-sized
            particulate matter composed of inorganic elements in vaccine samples”
            not declared in the products’ ingredients lists.

            Lead particles were found in the cervical cancer vaccines, Gardasil
            and Cevarix, for example, and in the seasonal flu vaccine Aggripal
            manufactured by Novartis as well as in the Meningetec vaccine meant to
            protect against meningitis C.

            Samples of an infant vaccine called Infarix Hexa (against
            diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis B, poliomyelitis and
            haemophilus influenzae type B) manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline was found
            to contain stainless steel, tungsten and a gold-zinc aggregate.

            Other metal contaminants included platinum, silver,
            bismuth, iron, and chromium. Chromium (alone or in alloy with iron and
            nickel) was identified in 25 of the human vaccines from Italy and France
            that were tested.

            GSK’s Fluarix vaccine for children three years and older
            contained 11 metals and aggregates of metals. Similar aggregates to
            those identified in the vaccines have been shown to be prevalent in
            cases of leukemia, the researchers noted.

            Many of the vaccines contained iron and iron alloys which, according to the researchers, “can corrode and the corrosion products exert a toxicity affecting the tissues”.

            Feligen, the only veterinary vaccine tested in the 44
            total vaccines sampled, proved to be the only sample free from inorganic
            contamination.[1]

            I find it interesting that the only vaccine without contaminants is
            for animals. Where is the FDA concerning this? Why are they not
            controlling this industry so that the vaccines don’t contain toxic
            materials? There are known toxins that have been attributed to autism,
            headaches, paralysis and many other unwanted side effects. The
            study explains that these foreign injected impurities may explain a
            vast array of apparently unrelated adverse events associated with
            vaccination from headaches and seizures to fatigue, muscle pain,
            paralysis and sudden infant death
            syndrome. More likely than not, they speculate, vaccine contaminants
            will “have a more serious impact on very small organisms like those of
            children.”

            Once inside a body, foreign material in a vaccine shot,
            whether it is meant to be there as in the case of an aluminum, or not,
            in the case of contaminants, launches the formidable immune system into
            action.

            As with anything small and foreign, its reaction to
            vaccine ingredients is potent, poorly understood, unpredictable, and as
            the Italian researchers say, may be “undesirable.” The immune system may
            dispatch an army of large white blood cells called macrophages to
            engulf the foreign bodies and contain them in swellings and granulomas
            at the injection site. But if the contaminants are swept away in the
            blood’s circulation to any distant site or organ including the
            microbiota, which regulate numerous functions including the immune
            system, their effect could be felt long after they covertly entered the
            body.[2] These are the things that government literally
            demands that we inject into our children. I have seen the auto industry
            produce cars that they knew had problems but they needed to meet the
            expected delivery dates and figured they could just recall the car and
            fix it later hoping that nothing too bad happened in the mean time.
            There seems to be the same mentality in the pharmaceutical industry, all
            for the almighty dollar. Vaccines have a long and sordid
            history of contamination. In 1955 batches of polio vaccine containing
            live polio virus infected and paralysed hundreds of children. The
            tragedy became known as the Cutter Incident for the laboratory where the
            vaccines had passed safety tests with flying colors.

            But there are dozens of other “incidents” which would better be called acts of criminal negligence, including:

            The polio vaccine doled out between 1955 and 1963 was contaminated with simian virus 40 (SV40) from monkey kidney cells used to produce the vaccine. It’s been linked to the growing epidemic of cancer.

            In 2007, Merck & Company, Inc. recalled 1.2 million
            doses of Hib vaccines due to contamination with bacteria called B.
            cereus, a potentially lethal food-poisoning bug.

            In 2009, more than 40,000 doses of a meningitis C vaccine for babies were withdrawn from the British market when they were found to be contaminated with blood-poisoning bacteria, S aureus.

            In 2010, deep sequence analysis of eight different live
            attenuated virus vaccines revealed unexpected viral sequences in three
            of them: retrovirus avian leukosis was found in a measles vaccine, a
            virus similar to simian retrovirus was identified in Rotateq
            anti-diarrhea vaccine developed by CDC consultant Paul Offit, and the
            entire genome sequence of porcine cirovirus1 was found in Rotarix
            leading the FDA to suspend the rotavirus vaccine.[3]

            It seems that money is the only real factor involved in producing
            these vaccines. There seems to be no regard to the studies that show
            the toxic contents of these vaccines. Current research has
            demonstrated that even very low concentrations of toxins and toxicants
            are dangerous to children’s neurological development.

            In a video presentation on
            the toxicity of particles to children, Bruce Lanphear, professor of
            children’s environmental health at Simon Fraser University in Canada,
            points out that “the World Health Organization and other agencies agree:
            there is no safe level of lead exposure.”

            Neurotoxic lead is unexpectedly more brain damaging at lower concentrations than at higher concentrations. “As the level of lead in children’s blood increases from 0 to 100 parts per billion, IQ scores drop by about six points,”
            says Lanphear. “In contrast, an increase from 100 to 200 parts per
            billion results in an IQ drop of two more points. An increase from 200
            to 300 parts per billion results in an IQ drop of another point.”

            “The impact of toxins on the developing brain is
            permanent,” adds Lanphear. “Children who are more heavily exposed to
            toxins won’t reach the same peak cognitive ability as those who have
            lower exposures.”

            Other studies have shown that the smaller the particle
            is, the more potent is its ability to stimulate the immune system.
            Researchers reported in a 2015 study, for example, that the aluminum adjuvant used in vaccines
            forms 1–20 µm “particulates” dispersed in solution, but much smaller
            nanoparticles – on the scale of one-billionth of a meter – are more
            effective at provoking a biological response. “There is increasing
            evidence that nanoparticles around or less than 200 nm as vaccine or
            antigen carriers have a more potent adjuvant activity than large
            microparticles,” they said.[4]

            We are dealing with our children here primarily and even ourselves in
            some cases and the utmost precaution should be taken to preserve their
            health. These vaccines are not doing that in fact what we see is they
            are doing the opposite. What we are seeing is a complete disregard for
            the long term health of our kids. The industry ignores their own
            studies and findings. When it comes to toxins then, less is
            more. Yet the industry does not appear to be even aware of the
            toxicological implications of its own findings. While contaminants may
            be at trace levels in a single adjuvant, and vary widely from lot to
            lot, there is no study of what pollutants piggyback in on other ingredients or downstream in the manufacturing process.
            No one in the public health oversight agencies promoting vaccines has
            even measured how these toxins add up over the 64-vaccine schedule
            recommended by the Centers for Disease Control.
            As far as anyone knows, Gatti’s is the only study to have examined the
            products for metal contaminants at the end of the line, before they are
            injected.

            The known components of vaccines are bad enough. Besides, neurotoxic aluminum and thimerosal, the ingredients list is
            a witches brew of quack medicines: remnants of WI-38 human diploid lung
            fibroblasts cells from aborted babies, processed bovine 14 gelatin,
            neomycin, glutaraldehyde, monkey kidney cells, polysorbate 80,
            hexadecyltrimethylammonium bromide, insect cell, viral protein,
            Dulbecco’s Modified Eagle Medium… and so on.[5]

          • Jonathan Graham

            How about you read that, find a study that is statistically strong and post sufficient information to find said study in a medical database.

            Otherwise, you’re just proving my point right?

          • Ron Roy

            Terrible rebuttal Pasty. Is that the best you can do? And what do you have to say about this:

            Dr. Arnold Relman, Harvard professor and former editor of the New England
            Journal of Medicine: “The medical profession is being bought by the
            pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also
            in terms of teaching and research. The academic institutions of this country are
            allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I
            think it’s disgraceful.” http://icfda.drugawareness….

            Dr. Marcia Angell, former Editor of NEJM: “It is simply no longer possible to
            believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the
            judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no
            pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two
            decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine…No one knows the
            total amount provided by drug companies to physicians, but I estimate from the
            annual reports of the top 9 U.S.-based drug companies that it comes to tens of
            billions of dollars a year in North America alone.By such means, the
            pharmaceutical industry has gained enormous control over how doctors evaluate
            and use its own products. Its extensive ties to physicians, particularly senior
            faculty at prestigious medical schools, affect the results of research, the way
            medicine is practiced, and even the definition of what constitutes a disease.”
            https://ethicalnag.org/2009

            Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of The Lancet: “The case against
            science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may
            simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects,
            invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with
            an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has
            taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, “poor methods get
            results”…The apparent endemicity of bad research behaviour is alarming. In
            their quest for telling a compelling story, scientists too often sculpt data to
            fit their preferred theory of the world. Or they retrofit hypotheses to fit
            their data. Journal editors deserve their fair share of criticism too. We aid
            and abet the worst behaviours. Our acquiescence to the impact factor fuels an
            unhealthy competition to win a place in a select few journals. Our love of
            “significance” pollutes the literature with many a statistical fairy-tale. We
            reject important confirmations. Journals are not the only miscreants.
            Universities are in a perpetual struggle for money and talent, endpoints that
            foster reductive metrics, such as high-impact publication. National assessment
            procedures, such as the Research Excellence Framework, incentivise bad
            practices.” http://www.thelancet.com/pd

            The Dawn of McScience, Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of the
            Lancet: ”Even scientific journals, supposedly the neutral arbiters of quality by
            virtue of their much-vaunted process of critical peer review, are owned by
            publishers and scientific societies that derive and demand huge earnings from
            advertising by drug companies and from the sale of commercially valuable
            content. The pressure on editors to adopt positions that favor these industries
            is yet another example of the bias that has infiltrated academic exchange. As
            editor of The Lancet I have attended medical conferences at which I have been
            urged to publish more favorable views of the pharmaceutical industry.”

            Nobel Prize winning scientist Sydney Brenner: “And of course all the
            academics say we’ve got to have peer review. But I don’t believe in peer review
            because I think it’s very distorted and as I’ve said, it’s simply a regression
            to the mean. I think peer review is hindering science. In fact, I think it has
            become a completely corrupt system. It’s corrupt in many ways, in that
            scientists and academics have handed over to the editors of these journals the
            ability to make judgment on science and scientists. There are universities in
            America, and I’ve heard from many committees, that we won’t consider people’s
            publications in low impact factor journals…I campaigned against this [culture]
            because I think it is not only bad, it’s corrupt. In other words it puts the
            judgment in the hands of people who really have no reason to exercise judgment
            at all. And that’s all been done in the aid of commerce, because they are now
            giant organisations making money out of it.”

            “An estimated 60% of biomedical research and development in the United States
            is now privately funded, and two thirds of academic institutions have equity
            ties with outside sponsors. Finding senior medical researchers or clinicians
            without financial ties to pharmaceutical companies has become exceedingly
            difficult. Those regarded as “thought leaders” routinely work as paid members of
            drug companies’ advisory boards despite evidence that the practice is part of
            industry’s promotional machinery. According to an article on the “tricks of the
            trade,” published in Pharmaceutical Marketing, the advisory process is one of
            the most powerful means of getting close to people and of influencing them”. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go

          • Jonathan Graham

            Why would I need a rebuttal when you keep making my point? You are unable to provide a statistically strong study demonstrating your point(s).

            Something interesting worth pointing out about those quotes is that science doesn’t stand still. When those words were written most research was published with little more than a p-value. Today, in medical research anyway confidence intervals are pervasive and people are starting to better understand power analyses and end-to-end reproducible research.

            Anyway I’ve steamrolled pretty much all your weirdo anti-science interpretations of those quotes before. If you want me to do it again just ask.

          • Ron Roy

            And Johnny said: Bla. bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So without a statistically strong study Ron, you continue to make my point. Right?

          • AutismDadd

            You have evidence Pharma companies never donate funds to anyone? Post it.

          • Ron Roy

            Hey shay a little history for you:
            Once upon a time, there was this measles vaccine…
            June 2, 2017
            ”The MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine is a live
            attenuated virus measles vaccine. That means that it contains a live
            measles virus that has been weakened. One of the “side effects” of the
            vaccine (which you can read in the vaccine’s package insert) is
            something called “atypical measles.” Yes yes yes, atypical measles is,
            essentially, measles. You can contract measles from the vaccine that is
            designed to prevent you from contracting measles. Surprise!

            Now, let me take you back in history to the early 1960s, specifically
            1963 when the first measles vaccine was introduced in the United
            States. Back then, the prevailing scientific belief was that one dose of
            the measles vaccine would provide you with life-long immunity. It
            sounded like a great deal. One shot, and boom… you were safe from
            getting measles the rest of your life. Well, you know how science is; it
            keeps changing on you. It’s funny that way. It’s never really settled,
            is it? Of course, only an idiot would assume that it is.

            Anyways, back in the 1960s (Ah, those were the good ole days, The
            Beatles, Gary Puckett, VW buses…) medical doctors, scientists, and
            public health officials were convinced that one shot of the measles
            vaccine guaranteed you immunity. So, when doctors soon started to see
            cases of children with what looked like measles, they waved it off and
            said, “Nah, can’t possibly be measles because the kid’s been vaccinated
            against measles, so he’s immune… It’s gotta be be something else. Eh,
            let’s just call it atypical measles.”

            Well, guess what? All those cases of “atypical measles” didn’t make
            it into the record books, data files, or graphs and charts for measles
            incidence rates. Why? Because doctors, who were working under a mistaken
            scientific belief, assumed what they were observing was not measles,
            although atypical measles had all the symptoms of measles. Countless
            children who came down with atypical measles were not considered to have
            measles… although that is precisely what they had. Interesting gimmick,
            huh?

            The science behind the measles vaccines of the 1960s proved to be
            wrong, and that led to a false understanding of what actually happened
            with regard to measles infections during that period of history. By and
            large, we continue to live with that fantasy—the one that assumes that
            the measles vaccines nearly eradicated measles in the US. The same thing
            happened with the polio story. They blew it with the science back then,
            and they blew it with the understanding of the history of it all.

            Doctors, scientists, and public health officials just don’t seem to
            be very good historians. And that’s a crying shame, because if you get
            the history wrong it all turns into one big complicated mess. Unraveling
            it all is one heck of a chore, and most people don’t have the interest
            or the attention span required to undertake it. So, sadly, they chose to
            stick with the fairy tale”.
            https://idsent.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/once-upon-a-time-there-was-this-measles-vaccine/

          • shay simmons

            Hi, Ron. A little science for you; blog posts are not evidence, any more than your wholly unsupported little fantasy about reading of medically confirmed vaccine deaths in a newspaper.

            Now, about that time-frame I requested?

          • shay simmons
          • Ron Roy

            Reverse that pyramid and you’d be closer to the truth. You know what thewy say about today’s $$$$$$$$$$cience.

            https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Kmo2BFuo7fbKYbM9AwN1-AEsDh&pid=15.1&P=0&w=270&h=204
            https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Kmo2BFuo7fbKYbM9AwN1-AEsDh&pid=15.1&P=0&w=270&h=204

          • shay simmons

            We know what you say about science, Ron; and we also know that you are a conduit for misinformation.

          • AutismDadd

            Why did Ron say vaccines are safe and effective?

          • AutismDadd

            Plus doctors claim all autism is the born with when regressive is the one that blew the numbers through the roof.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            No. Its not. The ones who “blew the numbers through the roof” are the ones who would have slipped under the radar if they were born earlier, because they have less obvious autistic traits or are better at blending in. Also, there are more adults getting diagnosed now than there used to be, as their traits were unnoticed when they were a child, but are now able to receive a diagnosis because more is known about the autism spectrum.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            I have a question.
            How much money do you think it would cost to maintain this conspiracy theory? So far, it seems like substantial amounts would need to be paid to:
            .
            1. All healthcare providers, scientists, researchers and medical professionals in the world. Except for the ones who had a change of heart and now want you to watch their movie, read their book and buy their supplements.
            .
            2. Any internet poster who disagrees with you (even if nobody but the same 20ish people reads or participates in them once theyre over 100 posts and old enough to have dropped off the front page of their host website)
            .
            3. All organisations giving aid to developing countries, in the form of vaccinating or offering medical treatment.
            .
            4. The government of all countries with socialised healthcare, it must be a whole lot, considering the idea of medical treatments that make people sicker would cost them billions. The NHS is in trouble because of government greed, if switching to alternative medicine would save money, they would do it. If the government found a way of reducing the cost of medical treatments by switching to cheaper alternative medicine they would too, if the money isn’t going into their pockets, theyre all about cutting costs. Lets use building materials that are low quality and burn easily and who cares about fire alarms and sprinkler systems, its cheaper that way even if people die from it. MP’s get a pay rise, but who cares about paying our nurses enough, not having to shut fire stations, or whether each cut to services makes the poor even poorer.
            .
            5. The government of all countries America doesn’t get on with, somehow, because nomatter what wars happen, all countries with decent access to healthcare seem to have the same conclusions from their own research and offer the same kind of medical care. Nobody’s unanimously decided to switch to homeopathy because its cheaper.

          • Ron Roy

            Glad you asked. This is just a small sample of how much they spend on bribes in the US alone:https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Ahhh but that’s just America (which does have weird drug advertising standards, how weird is it that drugs are advertised on TV?). I don’t doubt this website, American healthcare is pretty much a business, and that causes problems and I don’t agree with this. America isn’t the whole world you see. I can totally see an American believing in Big Pharma because of their weird healthcare system, but when you think about the rest of the world, it falls apart.
            .
            The reason that the pharmaceutical companies do this is because they want doctors to trust THEIR products over their competitors. Their competitors are not alternative medicine, their competitors are other pharmaceutical companies which have also created drugs to treat that condition. Vaccines aren’t a product, they are many products all made by different companies.
            .
            Also, why would a business of any kind sell faulty products? If this was a known problem, why are other pharmaceutical companies not working for safer products and then promoting theirs as a better alternative that wont give your kids autism. The business most likely to be successful is the one that sells better products, the ones with crap products that don’t work lose out to their competitors.
            .
            Explain non American research too. How much would it cost to pay off entire countries with socialised healthcare, to stick with products that make people sicker and need even more treatment (increasing burden on their services) instead of deciding that the money isn’t worth it and switching to homeopathy because its cheaper and more effective.

          • Ron Roy

            Italians take to the streets to protest forced vaccines and the influence pharmaceutical companies have on their government:http://www.jewworldorder.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Vaccine-protests-Italy.jpg

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Yes, other countries have antivaxxers too. Theyre just as uninformed and ignorant of how the healthcare system works as American antivaxxers. In fact, even more so, because the Big Pharma conspiracy would be very inconvenient to any healthcare system but one like America’s.

          • Ron Roy

            Yes, other countries have anti-vaxxers too. They’re just as informed of how the healthcare system works as American anti-vaxxers because the Big Pharma is corrupting all healthcare systems like America’s. FTFY

          • ILoveJellybeans

            How is it worth it though. What makes America so special that other countries (even ones that are not allied with them) would consider it worth it to lie and manipulate data in their own research and then make their system more inefficient and make them lose billions? America doesn’t control the world.
            .
            Also why is it the same all across the world? How is something so organised even through wars and stuff. Would a country really go along with a scheme by the country that bombed them? There’s no peace on Earth. Do you really think one country isn’t going to decide they’ve had enough and start using homeopathy instead to ease the burden on their healthcare system?

          • Ron Roy

            ”America doesn’t control the world.” Well yes and no. Bankers / globalists/ internationalists control America and use its military to help control the world. The big banks ( Rothschild controlled banks ) control the world. Drug companies are willing to spend a few million dollars in bribes to gain billions in profits from treating vaccine damaged children.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Let me guess, you believe in the whole illuminati or some other kind of secret society controlling the world too?
            .
            A few million dollars isn’t going to cover the amount they would need to make all the countries in the world go for it, pay all the people who know about the conspiracy enough to keep it, keep quiet all the people who might tell, pay shills to promote it on the internet.
            .
            Human nature is naturally selfish. Are you telling me that with all of these people involved, it has managed to be kept a secret despite it being against most of the world’s best interests? No country decided to blow the lid on this whole conspiracy thing and switch to cheaper alternative treatments that actually work as it benefits their healthcare system and their country’s economy to not make people sicker, or even out of spite because America bombed them, or because the bumbling orange fool offended them.
            .
            Are you telling me that greedy British politicians are fine with going along with a conspiracy that causes more strain on the NHS and also more people on disability benefits? They want to cut costs whenever possible, so they have more money to line their pockets.
            .
            America has had an antivax president for almost a year now. Why hasn’t the healthcare system switched to homeopathy and stopped giving vaccines? Why is the “truth” not out and only in fringe circles and led by ex models, celebrities, chiropractors, naturopaths and the occasional disgraced doctor.
            .
            Why don’t we vaccinate for smallpox anymore? Because its been eradicated. Now hospitals are not treating smallpox patients, and they are also not giving smallpox vaccines. The drug companies don’t benefit from that…and whats more, theyre working on doing the same with polio too, and eventually the other vaccine preventable diseases, meaning future kids will have less vaccines in the schedule!
            .
            Drug companies aren’t making billions of profits from autistic kids. Unless you count the “drug companies” selling chelation pills over the internet for gullible people to self administer because the internet told them to, or the ones selling bleach to put up your kid’s butt, or the ones selling supplements to cure autism…..in mainstream medicine, autism isn’t treated with drugs, most autistic kids get therapy and special accommodations in school and stuff.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Human nature is naturally selfish. Are you telling me that with all of
            these people involved, it has managed to be kept a secret despite it
            being against most of the world’s best interests?” Who ever said it was a secret:https://www.propublica.org/series/dollars-for-docs

            https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/
            Illuminati? How about The Council on Foreign Relations or the Bilderbergers. This is what David Rockefeller ( a former president of the CFR )admitted to: ”Some even believe we [Rockefeller family] are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – One World, if you will.If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it”

          • ILoveJellybeans

            I just used the illuminati as an example. I know some people believe there are other ones, like the New World Order or the reptilians.

          • Ron Roy

            Better do a little research before making an even bigger fool of yourself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

          • ILoveJellybeans

            I know that technically, they exist (other than the reptilians) as secret societies, but they aren’t quite as powerful as people think. The world is not controlled by some sort of shady secret group with plans of world domination and mass brainwashing.

          • Ron Roy

            What no comment on Rockefeller?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Because its just complete and utter insanity to believe that one small group controls the entire world, especially when you also include things like trying to make people sicker by giving them medicine that is supposed to heal them but it doesn’t, that the trail from burning jet fuel let out by planes is actually brainwashing mind control gas, that the government is planning to microchip all citizens, that every bad thing that ever happens was done by the government to accomplish some kind of plan etc.

          • Add countries with universal healthcare to that list. Even if evil, it’s in their own interests to keep people healthy.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Of course. More sick people means more money spent on healthcare (and not on guns and bombs, or giving politicians a pay rise), and also more people who are unable to work, which means less money from taxes to spend on healthcare.
            .
            If someone did find a way to cure cancer in 2 weeks without surgery, and with less side effects than chemotherapy, it would be celebrated, as it would cost less in healthcare, and that person could go back to work quicker too.
            .
            If someone found a way to reverse diabetes completely in a month, it would be celebrated, as it means it would make healthcare cost less, as instead of long term insulin, they would be cured and not need it anymore.
            .
            If chelation and bleach enemas could be the difference between someone who is on disability benefits, and someone who has a job and is paying taxes, the government would definitely prefer that option.
            .
            They could also pay their staff better, for doing less work. There will still always be a need for doctors, nurses and hospitals, as people will still get physically injured and need stitches, or a cast on their broken bone, and it wont make people live forever, there will still be a point where people will suffer the natural effects of aging and then die. People would also get sick and need diagnosing and then someone to recommend treatment, the treatment would just be different. There would also be regular check ups, although that could include the weird false positive tests for allergies, heavy metal poisoning, vitamin deficiencies instead, followed by a chiropractic adjustment and drug companies could switch to making homeopathic remedies, supplements and essential oils….and it seems people who subscribe to that use them as regularly as people with chronic illnesses use drugs, in fact, even more, as most people who aren’t sick don’t take any medication, but most people who are into alternative medicine are on some sort of supplement.

          • shay simmons

            Reading comprehension much?

          • Can you show me where in those countries there are forced vaccines?

            Beware I’m expecting actual force.

          • AutismDadd

            Can’t figure out what mandatory means? Can’t understand that not letting children attend school is coercion? It mild force, but its force.

          • Is it coercion or is it force?

            Mandates =/= mandatory.

            And well…other people have rights too.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice brain fart.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Humans live in a society. Each member of that society has certain responsibilities to be able to live in that society.
            .
            To drive a car, you have to wear your seatbelt and ensure your passengers do too and also make sure that any children in the car are in car seats. You have to pass a test to prove you can handle a car responsibly and know how to drive it. You are not allowed to drive drunk.
            .
            If you cannot agree to these responsibilities, you no longer are allowed to drive a car. Why? Because if you drive dangerously, you could die, but most importantly, you could also kill other people too. Driving a car is not a right, if you choose not to drive responsibly, you can just take the bus. Its less convenient, but youre not being stopped from going anyway, its just the price you have to pay for being irresponsible.
            .
            To put your child in school, you should have to have them vaccinated (unless there is a genuine medical reason, with a note from a real doctor to prove it). You must do your part to protect herd immunity, if herd immunity drops too low, it will no longer protect people who are unable to be vaccinated, or did not create the required immune response to previous exposure (either by vaccines or wild virus).
            .
            If you cannot agree to these responsibilities, you shouldn’t be able to put your kid in school. Why? Because if herd immunity weakens, the disease can thrive and your kid could catch the disease, and could die, but also could spread their disease to children who are too sick to be vaccinated, who probably WILL die. Putting your child in school isn’t a right, if you choose not to do your bit in protecting herd immunity, you can just homeschool your kid. Its less convenient, but your kid isn’t being stopped from having an education, having it harder is just the price you have to pay for being irresponsible.
            .
            Mandatory vaccination, or laws making it harder for people to choose not to vaccinate aren’t a bad thing. You cant always get what you want. We have laws for a lot of things, for the good of society, as the needs of society as a whole are more important than the wants of individuals.
            .
            Sure, someone might want to drive drunk down the wrong side of a busy road, but they cant. Someone might want to drop their pants and have a poo in the middle of the street, but they cant. Someone might want to open a restaurant and cut costs by using rat meat and cheap dog food, but they cant. Someone might want to kill people, but they cant.
            .
            People have choices in life. Lots of choices, but they should not be allowed to make choices that harm others. If we lived in a society where there was no laws and everyone could do whatever they wanted, it would be chaos.

          • AutismDadd

            We need more protest

          • Ron Roy

            I have a question.
            How much money do you think it would cost to
            maintain this conspiracy theory? So far, it seems like substantial
            amounts would need to be paid to: you left out internet trolls like yourself.

          • 2. Any internet poster who disagrees with you (even if nobody but the same 20ish people reads or participates in them once theyre over 100 posts and old enough to have dropped off the front page of their host website)
            .

          • ILoveJellybeans

            See point number two.
            .
            Exactly how many people join in discussions about vaccines, not just on Disqus, but on Facebook, Twitter, internet forums, non Disqus comments sections etc. Lots, right.
            .
            How much would this cost, and is it really worth it considering the amount of views these threads get? The threads we all post on go on for weeks, reach over a thousand posts, and are mostly posted on by the same 20 people. Once they get so long, once they get so old they drop off the website’s home page and into their archive, we are the only ones reading them.
            .
            Has this has an effect, do you think? Have any regular posters changed their minds? No, we are all still firmly on one side and debating hasn’t changed that. I don’t imagine there are many lurkers looking at us and making their mind up, maybe one or two on occasion when the thread is still short, but once it gets really long, I doubt anyone else is reading.

          • Jonathan Graham

            More correctly it says how gullible and naive you are Ron.

          • AutismDadd

            Vaccine injury compensation programs are rare too, only 19 exist in the countries that can afford them.

          • And where do NIIICP exist? Oh right, in 0 countries.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice avoidance and deflection snake belly

          • Actually, we do. We just don’t indulge your particular fantasies and we bother with risk/risk calculations which are, you know, the very basis of informed consent.

          • AutismDadd

            Malnourished in refugee camps. Can’t imagine that being a place where illness could strike.

          • AutismDadd

            Talking rubbish Mike.

          • AutismDadd

            You need shock treatment. Go stick your in a socket

          • AutismDadd

            How sadistic

          • *Sigh*

            Time to do this again:

            I, OOPIT, hereby agree that vaccines aren’t 100% safe just like literally any other thing in life.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6cffae141f431ffa48511d64c826df176f42f902728cc7ad1202813edb2cf430.jpg

          • AutismDadd

            Most injury isn’t reported, plus the NVICP denies far more that it compensates. You know the ones denied are not on any graph.

          • Evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            Stooge?

          • AutismDadd

            Hypocrite alert!

          • AutismDadd

            How many children are killed each year from pet dogs Mike?

          • Ron Roy

            Simply giving those children vitamin A supplements would have prevented those deaths but alas doctors don’t study nutrition.

        • ciaparker2

          And Romania is one of the poorest countries in Europe, with widespread malnourishment, and some impoverished ethnic groups which often experience poor outcomes in cases of measles. Being malnourished and poor certainly does increase measles mortality. Parents in these groups have a difficult decision to make regarding whether or not to take the measles vaccine, which may easily disable their child from a vaccine reaction. Those who are not poor and malnourished have nothing to fear from measles if they stay quiet and well-hydrated in bed throughout the illness and TAKE vitamin A and DON’T TAKE any fever reducers. And stay home for three weeks after the day the rash appears.

          • Judith

            So true Cia – Malnourishment and measles are a toxic combination.
            The measles vaccine does not work well when the body is malnourished:

            Vitamin A deficiency and measles, which is estimated to kill 2 million children per year, are closely linked. Measles in a child is more likely to exacerbate any existing nutritional deficiency, and children who are already deficient in vitamin A are at much greater risk of dying from measles. Postmeasles diarrhea is particularly difficult to treat and has a very high mortality [22]. Vitamin A deficiency increases the risk of developing respiratory disease and chronic ear infections [22]. Vitamin A supplementation sustains gut integrity, lowers the incidence of respiratory tract infections, reduces mortality from diarrhea, and enhances immunity. Measles also depletes the body’s supply of vitamin A. Thus, vaccination against measles should includes a high dose of vitamin A.

            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/10/1582.full

          • shay simmons

            You don’t have to be malnourished to suffer severe complications from the measles — or are you trying to say that all of those hospitalized from the Disney outbreak were malnourished?

          • ciaparker2

            But you probably noticed that none of them died? There’s nothing they can do for them at the hospital, maybe intravenous fluids if they get dehydrated, antibiotics in the unusual event of a bacterial complication. But these days the knee-jerk reaction if measles is diagnosed is to put them in the hospital, and that clears the doctor in case of a complication. The one death was in a severely immunocompromised woman who caught it at a clinic, and, like the one fatality in the Swansea outbreak, it was some time after her death that they decided that she had had measles.
            And, those who take fever reducers have an increased risk of complications and death. So no Tylenol, no aspirin, just tough it out.

          • shay simmons

            The only complication that matters is death?

            latimes(dot)com/local/california/la-me-measles-20150418-story.html

            “California’s measles outbreak is over, but vaccine fight continues
            About 1 in 5 who got the measles in California had to be hospitalized. One collapsed at home, was placed on a mechanical ventilator due to severe pneumonia and developed multiple organ injury. Another suffered acute respiratory distress syndrome and had to be treated with an experimental drug that required special approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.”

            Edited to add: if “But these days the knee-jerk reaction if measles is diagnosed is to put them in the hospital,” then why weren’t all of them hospitalized?

          • AutismDadd

            Sounds more like post vaccine reactions. You know the “vaccines working” Double standard alert!

          • ciaparker2

            Did I say that the only complication which mattered is death? Natural measles can in a few cases cause permanent disability, which can usually be prevented by taking vitamin A. The MMR causes permanent disability much more often than natural measles. It is a gamble either way. The parents MUST research the issue carefully before making the vaccine decision. There are no absolutes, no guarantees, on either side.

            As to why they were not all hospitalized, one factor is that not all doctors are cowards whose main desire is to protect themselves from liability. Another is that most children with measles obviously don’t have a severe case. Another is that the parents have to agree to hospitalization, and not all of them are going to agree.

          • shay simmons

            You keep insisting that the Disney outbreak was no big deal because no one died.

            latimes(dot)com/local/california/la-me-measles-20150418-story.html
            “California’s measles outbreak is over, but vaccine fight continues
            About 1 in 5 who got the measles in California had to be hospitalized. One collapsed at home, was placed on a mechanical ventilator due to severe pneumonia and developed multiple organ injury. Another suffered acute respiratory distress syndrome and had to be treated with an experimental drug that required special approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.”

          • ciaparker2

            And I have always urged every parent to research the question carefully before making any vaccine decision. I don’t care what they choose as long as they are well-informed. If they choose the MMR, their child is very unlikely to get measles (although some do), but they are quite likely to get autism, bowel disease, or any one of dozens of other severe conditions. The choice is up to them. No one my age or older, all of whom had natural measles as children, had any dangerous symptoms and all recovered uneventfully, as the vast majority still do. If parents are that terrified of the rare occurrence of symptoms as severe as those you listed, then, sure, get the vaccine, but many will then have to spend the rest of their lives coping with the autism etc. caused by the vaccine. And their child may well one day get and possibly die of one or more of the many diseases often prevented by natural measles, including all kinds of cancer but breast cancer. Personally, I think it’s much better for well-nourished, healthy children to just get measles, take vitamin A, not take any fever reducers, drink a lot of liquids to prevent dehydration, take homeopathic remedies where indicated, and stay quiet in bed until the fever is gone and quiet at home for three weeks after the day the rash appear. And then they won’t get these severe symptoms but will only benefit from having had natural measles.

          • shay simmons

            And I have always urged every parent to research the question carefully

            No, you have always trotted out your debunked, half-baked, unsupported theories and wacky personal anecdotes*.

            BTW, parker, if measles prevents cancer, how come Americans over 65 account for 70% of all cancer deaths? You never seem to answer that one.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1500929/

            EDITED TO ADD: *wacky and frequently changing personal anecdotes.

          • FallsAngel

            If they choose the MMR, their child is very unlikely to get measles
            (although some do), but they are quite likely to get autism, bowel
            disease, or any one of dozens of other severe conditions. The choice is
            up to them. No one my age or older, all of whom had natural measles as
            children, had any dangerous symptoms and all recovered uneventfully, as
            the vast majority still do.

            That is an outright lie. Very few vaccinated people have ever gotten measles after vaccination, particularly after two doses of vaccine.

            No child has ever gotten autism from MMR vaccine. Brian Hooker’s child was noted to be behind developmentally long before he ever got his MMR. Many people your age or older had dangerous symptoms, there were about 50,000 hospitalizations each year d/t measles. Many lost their hearing, their vision and/or their intellectual capacity.

            Personally, I think it’s much better for well-nourished, healthy
            children to just get measles, take vitamin A, not take any fever
            reducers, drink a lot of liquids to prevent dehydration, take
            homeopathic remedies where indicated, and stay quiet in bed until the
            fever is gone and quiet at home for three weeks after the day the rash
            appear. And then they won’t get these severe symptoms but will only
            benefit from having had natural measles.

            Stop, stop, stop with that witchcraftery! There is no scientific evidence for any of that except to drink a lot of liquids. Homeopathic remedies don’t do anything. And there are no particular benefits to having natural measles except that one has immunity from further measles disease, which one can get from a vaccine!

          • Just out of curiosity, Cia, what journal did you publish your research in? What happens if a parent actually researches the issue and comes to a different conclusion?

          • shay simmons

            As to why they were not all hospitalized, one factor is that not all doctors are cowards whose main desire is to protect themselves from liability.

            You live in the US, parker, and therefore you know quite well that insurance companies won’t authorize a hospitalization unless there are serious issues. Your repeated comments that these patients – 20% of those who caught the measles — were hospitalized on some kind of whim or CYA is dishonest, and you know it.

          • shay simmons

            Natural measles can in a few cases cause permanent disability, which can usually be prevented by taking vitamin A. The MMR causes permanent disability much more often than natural measles.

            Citations needed for both claims.

          • FallsAngel

            “But these days the knee-jerk reaction if measles is diagnosed is to put
            them in the hospital, and that clears the doctor in case of a
            complication.”

            Once again proving you know nothing about health care, cia. It is very difficult to get hospitalized in the US these days, has been for several decades now. You have to practically be at death’s door before insurance/Medicaid/Medicare will authorize it.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Not according to the NHS website either, which says that hospitalisation isn’t required unless serious complications occur, you just need to stay home for a few days.

            You only need to go to hospital if this happens:

            shortness of breath
            a sharp chest pain that feels worse with breathing
            coughing up blood
            drowsiness
            confusion
            fits (convulsions)

            http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Treatment.aspx

          • ciaparker2

            In most of the cases in which measles patients are hospitalized, none of these symptoms occur. These days, most parents panic if their child gets a high fever, and a fever as high as 105 degrees Fahrenheit for three days is common with measles, and would cause both parents and doctors alike to panic and put them in the hospital. And most insurance companies would not like to court liability in a field currently as unknown to most people as measles. The pharma propaganda has been so successful in painting it as a “killer” disease that very few people are going to remain calm and recognize that high fever is beneficial in such cases and not a reason to panic.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Any proof for that, as all sources say that hospitalisation is only in severe cases.
            .
            Just because a parent takes their child to the emergency room, doesn’t mean that the child will end up admitted to hospital. If its something that can be treated at home, they will be told so and given advice and maybe medicine, and sent home. Hospitals need that bed for someone who is more seriously ill.

          • sabelmouse

            that’s england .
            not the usa.
            just check websites.
            i scrateched my eye with a twig, all the american sites told me to rush to a doctor, the nhs said ” wait a little, don’t bother us if you can help it”.
            ditto the irish health board.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Q: My doctor or someone from the health department told me that I have measles. What should I do?

            A: If you have measles, you should stay home for four days after you develop the rash. Staying home is an important way to not spread measles to other people. Talk to your doctor to discuss when it is safe to return.

            You should also
            Cover your mouth and nose with a tissue when you cough or sneeze, and put your used tissue in the trash can. If you don’t have a tissue, cough or sneeze into your upper sleeve or elbow, not your hands.
            Wash your hands often with soap and water.
            Avoid sharing drinks or eating utensils.
            Disinfect frequently touched surfaces, such as toys, doorknobs, tables, counters.
            Call your doctor is you are concerned about your symptoms.

            https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

            There is no prescription medication to treat measles. The virus and symptoms typically disappear within two to three weeks. However, your doctor may recommend:
            acetaminophen to relieve fever and muscle aches
            rest to help boost your immune system
            plenty of fluids (six to eight glasses of water a day)
            humidifier to ease a cough and sore throat
            vitamin A supplements
            http://www.healthline.com/health/measles#diagnosis5

            Children with measles should be quarantined for 4 days after their rash appears. If they have a weakened immune system, they should stay in isolation until they make a full recovery and all symptoms are gone.

            When to Call the Doctor

            Call the doctor immediately if you suspect that your child has measles. Also, it’s important to get medical care after measles exposure, especially if your child:
            is an infant
            is taking medicines that suppress the immune system
            has tuberculosis, cancer, or a disease that affects the immune system
            http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/measles.html#kha_42

          • sabelmouse

            i am glad they advise vit A.

          • whimsical

            Hello love. You might find this amusing.

            The Spectator is a weekly British magazine

          • sabelmouse

            and?

          • England. You know, a country with universal healthcare?

          • FallsAngel


            You know, that’s just plain compost, cia, about 5 tons of it! We’ve been over and over and OVER this. You cannot get hospitalized in the US unless you are at death’s door. Most insurance companies will not pay for hospitalization for a simple fever. Here is an article about the hospitalized kids in Minnesota: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/06/05/muslim-health-leaders-team-up-to-curb-measles-outbreak
            “It’s been miserable for some of them, said Patsy Stinchfield, who’s overseeing care at Children’s Minnesota.

            “They are very, very sick,” Stinchfield said. “They’re very tired. They are dehydrated. They are so dry that they don’t cry tears anymore. They are very listless. They’ve needed IVs. They’ve needed
            oxygen. They’ve had pneumonia.” “

          • ciaparker2

            I was hospitalized for three and a half weeks from an MS attack which paralyzed my left arm and leg. They didn’t think I’d ever recover use of them. I was sure I would, and I did. However, the intravenous prednisone did nothing to slow the onset of the paralysis, and the nurses agreed with me that it had done nothing at all for me. And there was nothing else they could do. I was not at death’s door, but when my father’s neurologist Dr. Sher agreed to see me and saw how I was becoming paralyzed, he recommended hospitalization, and I was at Boone Hospital the same day. Even when it was evident that there was nothing they could do to help me, they still kept me in.

          • FallsAngel

            I’d need to know more details than that to call it an unnecessary hospitalization. after all, you were paralyzed.

          • Mike Stevens

            Of course it wasn’t an unecessary hospitalisation. She needed inpatient diagnosis (LP etc) and then treatment (5 days IV methylpred) for starters. Then physio and rehab to help her recover, which she did.

            She always has the option of refusing admission when she next gets a relapse of her MS, and I assume she will have her homeopath on speed dial.

          • ciaparker2

            I’ve had a partial relapse for the last two weeks, after accidentally taking too much ALA in my round of chelation two weeks ago. It couldn’t possibly have pulled much mercury out of my brain, but I have been miserable. On Monday two weeks ago we went to UPS to return something, then suddenly on the way to the grocery store, I got very dizzy and nauseated and threw up many times in the car, just like in my second severe attack of MS, and like in that attack last May after taking ONE dose of homeopathic Mer Detox three hours before. Since then I’ve been getting sudden attacks not as bad as that, just severe dizziness and ataxia, every day. We went for a walk today with my Iranian friend, I had my bag with me with DMSA and selenium, and homeopathic aurum muriaticum and cocculus indicus. And I had another attack of dizziness and ataxia. I told my friend that it was like when I had my first attack, and told a friend at the grad school that I was listing to the left when I walked. This time I list to the right. She asked if it were the same thing, and I said yes, it’s the same thing. MS=mercury poisoning. Last week I had the same thing as last year and the year before (ascorbyl palmitate and the homeopathic remedies for mercury detoxification): sudden attack of dizziness, sweating, acute discomfort, vomiting. For an hour and a half (before they lasted three or four hours). Then finally I felt cold and shivered, and that meant the end of the mercury attack, when the mercury was (temporarily) redeposited. I haven’t been able to find descriptions of acute mercury poisoning which mention the sweating, burning with heat, and shivering at the end, but it makes sense that the body is trying to detoxify the mercury by sweating, vomiting, and peeing a lot. C. had a rash as one of her symptoms of mercury toxicity from Recombivax, as well as sweating all over her head even in cool rooms, and copious drooling (for ten years). Dr. Yazbak told me that the vaccine encephalitis (screaming syndrome) was independent of the mercury toxicity, but it may be that it was the combination of both which resulted in her autism.

            I took another selenium capsule and within fifteen minutes felt almost normal again: selenium binds to mercury, forming a compound which the mercury can’t then break out of. I wish I had known about it years ago. I’m anxious to see if it seems to get enough mercury out to improve my health.

          • Mike Stevens

            Most of us are aware of your total wingnuttery, Cia, so you don’t have to reinforce it.

            Your simplistic idea that “selenium binds to mercury” is also wrong and outdated. What happens is that selenium can be protective against mercury toxicity, because having good levels of selenium will mean that your selenoenzymes are functioning normally and at maximal efficiency. Mercury can inhibit selenoenzymes, interfering with their activity. So what you need to do is maintain high levels of selenium constantly, so that your selenoenzymes are maximally active and if there is any mercury toxicity then its effect on selenoenzymes will be mnimised.
            In other words, in theory you shouldn’t wait until you already have the imaginary effects of your imaginary mercury toxicity before taking selenium. That won’t work, and is likely a pure placebo at that point. [Particularly as it wouldn’t work within 15 minutes anyway – you need around 2 hours for selenium levels to reach peak concentration following oral absorbtion, and then you also need it to cross the blood brain barrier to reach the CNS; this confirms your “response” was just a placebo effect]
            But beware – selenium toxicity is not a negligible risk – it can occur in people taking supplements. You shouldn’t exceed around 50-100μg/d.

            [This is all completely irrelevant anyway, since you don’t suffer from mercury toxicity, but if you are going to be ridiculously irrational, then you might as well act in a quasi-logical fashion about it.]

          • [Also, insert basic chemistry comments]

          • kfunk937

            Mercury toxicity and anti-medicine beliefs seems to be cia’s idée fixe/monothematic delusion, a feature of which is that it doesn’t distress the afflicted party, bulwarked by insight deficit (as well as biases we all share). Dislodging such a pervasive, coherent delusion is as treatment-resistant as personality disorders (which also tend not to trouble those who have them). Internally, things “make sense”, like a grand unifying theory, but detached from external reality. (There is some interesting work going on currently using metacognitive therapy, though.) As we know, neuropsychiatric issues are not exactly unknown in MS and, like comorbid SMIs, can complicate MS treatment, especially if DMAMS are rejected.

            If you’ll pardon some additional armchair speculation, I am seriously starting to wonder if cia’s uncle, who “fell asleep in the sun and woke up schizophrenic” may’ve had a psychiatric onset atypical first presentation of MS, especially given heat intolerance and exacerbation of symptoms with elevated core temp in MS. If he was diagnosed before the ’80s when MRI came into use (which, based on cia’s age, seems likely) that’s one possibility. OTOH, even after MRIs were available, initial psychotic presentation would tend to bias against MS workup absent more classical signs. I’m not saying it’s the case, but it was a passing thought.

            Of course, there’s also increasing genome-wide linkage evidence that some things just run in families.

          • AutismDadd

            What rubbish

          • Mike Stevens

            That is so true. Her family has had several sufferers of autism, schizophrenia, psychiatric problems and ADHD. Genetics is the clear underlying factor.

            We also know that those affected in her family have the Neurexin-1 gene deletion, impairing synaptic integrity within the brain and directly causing autism.

            But no… her idee fixe is that it is all due to mercury toxicity from vaccines. Clearly there are significant “issues” here, but I would be reluctant to expand on them from a medical perspective on an open forum.

          • kfunk937

            Points well made, and taken.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            We also know that those affected in her family have the Neurexin-1 gene deletion, impairing synaptic integrity within the brain and directly causing autism.

            So anything that impairs syntaptic integrity causes autism?

            Did you know that aluminum ions crosslink the τ-proteins in the brain? This seem like a good candidate.

            Aluminum has been shown to cause dementia, and vaccines can be made without it.

          • AutismDadd

            Great job SUPPORTING Cia. Maybe you are human after all.

          • I’m so glad that you agree that agreeing is not necessary to care about people.

          • AutismDadd

            Feel free to inflate a few balloons.

          • ciaparker2

            I read about selenium chelating circulating mercury in a book by Jenny McCarthy and Dr. Jerry Kartzinel, both of whose sons reacted to the MMR with autism (and no, there’s no mercury in the MMR). I googled it and found a lot of information on it. My multivitamin has 400 mcg a day: I read that you can take up to 800 mcg a day, and mercury-toxic people or those deficient in it can take up to 1,000 mcg a day. So far taking the DMSA not more often than every four hours and selenium as needed seems to be pulling me back when I’m going down into dizziness, ataxia, and vomiting. So I’m going to have to thank you for the information, but continue trying to chelate out the vaccine mercury which has made me so sick for so long. Since my multivitamin has always had 400 mcg a day of selenium, should that not have been enough if a baseline level were enough? I was concerned about potential toxicity, and have not been taking the multivitamin so that I could take the 50 mcg capsules of selenium as needed. I’ve taken three so far today when I was starting to feel dizzy and ataxic. So far, so good.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I read about selenium chelating circulating mercury in a book by Jenny McCarthy and Dr. Jerry Kartzinel”

            Well… there’s one problem for starters.

            “Selenium is a naturally occurring mineral required for good health. It is obtained from food, and the recommended dietary allowance is 55 μg/d for persons 14 years or older, with a tolerable upper intake limit of 400 μg/d.1,2 The amount of selenium available in a diverse diet with meat, grains, vegetables, and nuts is typically sufficient to negate the necessity for supplementation.3 Selenium toxicity can occur with acute or chronic ingestion of excess selenium. Symptoms of selenium toxicity include nausea; vomiting; nail discoloration, brittleness, and loss; hair loss; fatigue; irritability; and foul breath odor (often described as “garlic breath”).1,2,4–6″
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225252/

            How enlightening… These symptoms sound amazingly like the symptoms you get whenever you dose yourself with extra selenium to “get mercury out of your brain”.

            There is your second problem.
            But I’ve long since given up any hope of your acting rationally, Cia.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Jenny McCarthy’s son never had autism. He was misdiagnosed.
            Why are they promoting chelation for autism when they believe the MMR caused their children to be autistic, when the MMR contains no thimerosal. Theyre taking from two theories, and those theories contradict eachother.

          • AutismDadd

            Cia have you read about cilantro and its ability to detox mercury?

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, I have, and also about chlorella. I’ve also read that it’s dangerous to take either one if you’re chelating with the Andy Cutler protocol, which I am (I’ll resume taking the ALA and DMSA when I get over this current worsening of my symptoms caused by the ALA pulling out too much mercury too fast). I just told a friend yesterday how much I’d like to talk to someone knowledgeable who could tell me the best way to do this. When I went to a doctor three years ago to get a prescription sleep med for a vacation I told him about the vaccine mercury poisoning causing severe permanent insomnia in me, and he just said pish-tosh, nonsense. I went to another in February before another vacation and told her about the mercury attacks, and she simply did not believe a word I said. I hope there’s a special circle in hell for these derelicts. I hope it’s not bad to take the DMSA and selenium at the same time or several the same day. Last year and the year before the mercury attacks happened twice a week for two months. Now it’s every day, but they’re getting milder and not lasting as long, maybe because of the selenium, maybe not.

            I appreciate your advice, thank you! I’ll probably eventually try cilantro and chlorella. There’s actually a lot on the Internet about multiple sclerosis being caused by vaccine mercury poisoning, but it’s hard to get concrete, practical recommendations about what to do about it.

          • AutismDadd

            With all the misinformation purposely planted and Big Pharma actually dictating what doctors are to believe, its hard to visit a doctor who doesn’t act superior.

          • shay simmons

            . I haven’t been able to find descriptions of acute mercury poisoning which mention the sweating, burning with heat, and shivering at the end

            Wake up and smell the coffee, parker.

          • Mike Stevens

            Your story doesn’t quite ring true, Cia. Certainly if we saw a patient with acute onset MS paralysis, we would admit them for assessment and treatment which would include a panel of tests including MRIB, LP etc. IV methylprednisolone is standard, and can take some time to work.
            I see you dismiss the suggestion that it worked, since “it did nothing for me”. Yet as you also say, you DID recover the use of your arm and leg. So you are contradicting yourself, as you often do whenever you invent some medical fairytale. Having no medical knowledge, you always trip yourself up. Grade 7 biology has its limitations.

          • ciaparker2

            They did an MRI and a spinal tap. The MRI, like the first one, showed brain lesions consistent with those of multiple sclerosis (aka mercury poisoning). They were surprised at how fast I was paralyzed, and tested me for a stroke, although they said I was very young to suspect a stroke. I was on the prednisone (it had another name) for nearly a week, continued to get worse, and then they stopped it. In the last ten days out of 27, I slowly recovered the use of my arm and leg, and set up an exercise regimen for myself when I got home (with a bad infection in my leg, à propos of what Judith said. I fell on the carpet of my room trying to hop to the bathroom unaided, got a tiny scrape which the nurse went ballistic when she saw, which I thought was silly. But it ballooned into a huge, painful, swollen infection from the knee down. I was SICK of medical whatever, and soaked it in extremely hot water with apple cider vinegar in it several times a day. I took bitter orange extract. And it got well without going to the doctor or taking antibiotics. As Judith said, natural remedies can be very effective (although I fully recognize that not always, and if it happened again, I’d take an antibiotic for it.) It was a hospital staph infection made worse by the steroid depressing my immune system.) I cannot say if the steroid had a delayed effect, not halting the paralysis, but eventually correcting it over a week after the IVs were stopped. I don’t think it did, but can’t be sure.

          • Which is it, Cia?

            Did you have MS? Or did you have Pink’s Disease?

          • Mike Stevens

            Again the inconsistency… Methylprednisolone works by causing immunosuppression, Cia.
            You seem to regard the course you had as having stopped working in this fashion the moment you stopped taking it (which is quite untrue – it works for several weeks afterwards).

            Yet you blame the possible staph infection you got in your leg on the immunosuppression from the steroids, even though this was after you got home, and 4 weeks after your steroid course.

            Do you not see how illogical you are being?
            1. Staph infection 4 weeks after steroids – “Must be the result of the steroids!!!” Evil doctors!!
            2. MS relapse improves 2 weeks after the steroids – “Cannot possibly be because of the steroids…nothing to do with them, they never helped at all!!!”

          • kfunk937

            How did she even determine it was staph? Basement laboratory, like the Geiers?

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia is an expert diagnostician.
            If she can easily determine that an infant who cries must have encephalitis, just from the sound (without needing to find typical neurological signs, or do diagnostic tests like lumbar puncture, MRIB scan, EEG and blood panels), then diagnosing Staph aureus sepsis in a leg without microbiological cultures is pretty basic stuff for her.

          • SciGuy

            Lab stains in the wound until you get the color you think is prettiest. That’s how I did/continue to do it with my published biofilm studies.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Who says that MS is mercury poisoning?
            That is the problem here, there’s no proof that vaccines gave you mercury poisoning, and no proof that you have anything other than MS.
            .
            Mercury poisoning isn’t mild. If you had it so severely that it takes that much chelation, you would have slipped into a coma and died.

          • shay simmons

            MS =/= mercury poisoning.

            Symptoms of MS – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMHT0024311/

            Symptoms of mercury poisoning – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1174458/?page=1

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Its funny isn’t it, that any alternative medicine source containing the symptoms of mercury poisoning describe it in the most vague and nonspecific way that pretty much any chronic condition and then some could be explained by it….. I guess there wouldn’t be much money in chelation if mercury poisoning wasnt something that everyone in the world has.
            .
            They always forget to include coma and death.

          • shay simmons

            No kidding. Parker is oblivious to the fact that her episodes coincide with her self-medication. Cart before horse.

          • Mike Stevens

            Added to which, no specialists or neurological experts in MS claim it is caused by mercury toxicity.
            I guess Cia knows more about it than they all do. She once said she knew more about Hep B than did the CDC, the WHO and the AMA combined, so knowing more about MS is a doddle in comparison.

            BYW, once I had to correct her about the clinical classification of MS and explain about relapsing-remittant MS, since she got the nomenclature entirely wrong.

          • kfunk937

            Here’s a thought experiment: if, as cia says, MS is mercury poisoning, and, as cia has claimed previously, autism is also mercury poisoning, why do MS and autism share no features? Why do neither resemble actual mercury toxicity?

          • ciaparker2

            You appear to know nothing about mercury poisoning.

            https://www.vaccinationnews

            Autism and mercury poisoning: both can cause loss of speech, failure to develop speech, aberrant speech, loss of ability to socialize, failure to ever interact socially appropriately, no eye contact, arm flapping, hand flapping, pronoun reversal, echolalia, lining things up, perseverations, chronic diarrhea or constipation, permanent severe insomnia. My daughter has had all of these.

            M.S. and mercury poisoning: dizziness, vomiting, ataxia, loss of balance, numbness, paralysis, fatigue (because mercury causes mitochondrial disorder), permanent severe insomnia, deafness, double vision, cataracts and other eye problems. I’ve had all of them.

            Gee, how many causes do you think there could be for a child’s persistently saying I when she means you and you when she means I? Or hand or arm flapping?

          • shay simmons

            Parker reminds me of the receptionist at one of our local hospitals who, in October 2015, caused a mild panic when she assumed that a woman who had recently returned from a medical mission to Africa and came in reporting fever and a headache, had Ebola.

            Turned out she had the flu.

          • shay simmons
          • kfunk937

            To the untrained eye, a lot of things look similar, from the outside. This is why, among other reasons, we use differential diagnoses AND why it’s a really, really very bad, no good, terrible idea to study medicine on your own and/or practice it on the internet.

            Please stop.

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Reading about toxicology isn’t “practicing medicine”? What planet are you from??

          • ILoveJellybeans

            The problem with reading too much about your symptoms online is that people aren’t so good at accurately judging their own symptoms (and sometimes can end up reading about some rare disease and then becoming convinced they definitely have it, or look up why they have a headache and come out thinking that they have a brain tumour), and also medical information on the internet isn’t always correct. Most people don’t know where to look for health information online, as there is so much misinformation out there.

          • Earth, apparently.

          • Or if you must (your caveats about it being a supremely terrible bad idea apply ) – at least use Coursera or Khan Academy or something and learn critical thinking as well.

          • kfunk937

            Those may be great sources to increase general knowledge, and aid in self-advocacy and communication with one’s healthcare providers, sure. But I would argue that it doesn’t remotely substitute for trained medical providers (real ones, not NDs, DCs, homeopaths and the like). There are also very good reasons that physicians do not treat family members and seek professional advice regarding their own ailments.

          • I agree.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Actually, there isn’t much overlap, when you look up each condition as a whole, instead of on websites that specifically want to connect the two.

            .

            A diagnosis of MS is often delayed because MS shares symptoms with other neurological conditions and diseases.

            The first symptoms of MS often include:

            vision problems such as blurred or double vision or optic neuritis, which causes pain in the eye and a rapid loss of vision.
            weak, stiff muscles, often with painful muscle spasms
            tingling or numbness in the arms, legs, trunk of the body, or face
            clumsiness, particularly difficulty staying balanced when walking
            bladder control problems, either inability to control the bladder or urgency
            dizziness that doesn’t go away

            MS may also cause later symptoms such as:

            mental or physical fatigue which accompanies the above symptoms during an attack
            mood changes such as depression or euphoria
            changes in the ability to concentrate or to multitask effectively
            difficulty making decisions, planning, or prioritizing at work or in private life.

            https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Hope-Through-Research/Multiple-Sclerosis-Hope-Through-Research#3215_4

            Here are some other links to a description of MS symptoms that do not mention vaccines or autism being connected. They do not correlate with autism in the slightest. You would have to be the worst doctor ever to accidentally diagnose someone with the wrong one.

            http://mymsaa.org/ms-information/symptoms/ms-symptoms/

            https://msfocus.org/Get-Educated/Symptoms-of-MS.aspx

            http://www.nationalmssociety.org/Symptoms-Diagnosis/MS-Symptoms

          • Mike Stevens

            So organophosphate poisoning causes both MS and autism?

            Are you now going to seek treatment with atropine and pralidoxime for C and yourself?

          • ciaparker2

            We don’t use garden products with organophosphates. We have no organophosphates in our home. On the other hand, we HAVE received vaccines with mercury and HAVE reacted to vaccines with vaccine encephalitis. Both my arms were paralyzed for several days starting the day I got a tetanus booster when I was nineteen, and I was later diagnosed with sometimes paralyzing multiple sclerosis by MRI.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            When did you receive vaccines containing thimerosal?
            .
            How long does mercury remain in the body for?
            .
            For you to still have mercury poisoning all of those years later, how much mercury would you have originally had to have had in your body?
            .
            What are the most serious complications of mercury poisoning, and did you have them?

          • Fluffy Puffin (the fluffiest!)

            Organophosphates are greatly associated with Parkinson’s disease. Just having a license to apply pesticides gives you a risk ratio of ~3.

            I have seen risk ratios around 5.

            Oddly, these same studies show a reduced risk of Parkinson’s with coffee drinking and cigarette smoking. This is not a fluke, as they all do (all that I’ve read). This is so well-known among Parkinson’s researchers that they often statistically correct for this.

            Organophosphates act on the neuromuscular junction.

          • Mike Stevens

            Mercury poisoning is nothing like autism.
            You might as well say traumatic brain injury is like autism.

            An example:
            Do you think Alcoholism is the same as chronic Hepatitis C? Both result in near-identical clinical outcomes in terms of liver damage, cirrhosis, hepatocellular cancer and end stage liver failure. So they must be the same, right?

            And there is hardly any overlap when one looks at the specific neurological outcomes for Hg vs autism, anyhow:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b70a757b87cf9103b9e9689c0dabc78e0ae256040ca5880aaa8d13e8e4b690df.jpg

          • Cia, the problem is that we know more about mercury poisoning than you do.

          • ciaparker2

            How amusing you are.

          • So your daughter’s encephalitis? What was her GCS?

            The characteristic signal intensity changes – were they focal or diffuse?

          • ciaparker2

            https://www.vaccinationnews.org/Scandals/Feb_15_02/comparison_symptoms.htm

            Autism and mercury poisoning: both can cause loss of speech, failure to develop speech, aberrant speech, loss of ability to socialize, failure to ever interact socially appropriately, no eye contact, arm flapping, hand flapping, pronoun reversal, echolalia, lining things up, perseverations, chronic diarrhea or constipation, permanent severe insomnia. My daughter has had all of these.

            M.S. and mercury poisoning: dizziness, vomiting, ataxia, loss of balance, numbness, paralysis, fatigue (because mercury causes mitochondrial disorder), permanent severe insomnia, deafness, double vision, cataracts and other eye problems. I’ve had all of them.

            Gee, how many causes do you think there could be for a child’s persistently saying I when she means you and you when she means I? Or hand or arm flapping?

          • shay simmons

            Moving the goalposts, parker?

          • shay simmons

            Just in case someone is wondering about the information contained at the link parker provided —

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e7732d8fb1fdf58e69762964349b4e84ac646f3a6200df13ec3bb86bd355d1df.jpg

          • kfunk937

            404, although again maybe the internet she hate me today.

          • shay simmons

            I fixed it. I had an extra apostrophe in there.

          • shay simmons

            “Mercury poisoning and autism both affect the central nervous system but the specific sites of involvement in brain and the brain cell types affected are different in the two disorders as evidenced clinically and by neuropathology. Mercury also injures the peripheral nervous system and other organs that are not affected in autism. Nonspecific symptoms such as anxiety, depression, and irrational fears may occur both in mercury poisoning and in children with autism, but overall the clinical picture of mercurism—from any known form, dose, duration, or age of exposure—does not mimic that of autism. No case history has been encountered in which the differential diagnosis of these 2 disorders was a problem. Most important, no evidence yet brought forward indicates that children exposed to vaccines containing mercurials, or mercurials via any other route of exposure, have more autism than children with less or no such exposure.”

            Op cit.

          • ciaparker2

            And Alzheimer’s is ALSO caused by vaccine mercury poisoning: the dementia and eventual paralysis are symptoms common to both. It used to be called general paresis of the insane (dementia and paralysis) in the days when mercury was used to treat syphilis. Every country which used mercury to treat syphilis wound up with hospitals full of GPI patients, while Norway, which did NOT use the mercury treatment, had NO cases of GPI. And schizophrenia and Parkinson’s are also caused by vaccine mercury poisoning. But yeah, squirm all you want to try to deny it.

          • shay simmons

            I’m not squirming — I’m waiting for you to produce something that even remotely resembles evidence that vaccines cause Alzheimers.

            Explain why Alzheimers almost always affects the generation that got at most two vaccines?

            EDITED TO ADD: parker is a textbook case of hearing hoofbeats and assuming it’s a zebra.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_(medicine)

          • ILoveJellybeans

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6338fec6ad566e37aa74a68b6b1ea5c08ab0d49318d622193ebb7fbf3302cdd4.jpg
            Only if you read the websites that are convincing you that autism and mercury poisoning are the same thing, so please buy our chelation treatment

          • ciaparker2

            http://www.regardingcaroline.com/andycutler2.html
            This is where I first read about the Andy Cutler mercury chelation protocol. Please read it and tell me how anyone is benefiting financially from this protocol of ALA/DMSA. Please also notice for how many it has worked. Specific brands are mentioned on the site (but the site owner has nothing to do with them), and DMSA is no longer sold in the US. Fortunately it still is in other countries.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Its done without a doctor, so there’s no money to be made from it?
            Well, someone is SELLING it, so theres money to be made from that. There are also “doctors” who do sell and recommend chelation.
            .
            “A half life is the period of time it takes for the amount of a substance be reduced by half. For example if you take 10 mg of a supplement and it’s half life is 3 hours. In 3 hours you have 5 mg left in your body.”
            .
            I have a question. How long have you had mercury poisoning, and what is the half life of mercury. Exactly how much would you even have had in your body to still have it now. You would be dead.
            .
            Where is the evidence that the protocol works. The link saying that 75% respond and 50% recover is linked to a Yahoo group and Andy is basically saying that it is a guess. That is not evidence. Evidence would be an actual, scientific study with a large sample size and double blind controls.
            .
            Also the tests used to determine if you need chelation are not recommended as a reliable way to detect mercury poisoning. A lot of these labs are also scams rigged for false positives.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            On reading this protocol, who diagnosed you with mercury poisoning and how? Did you self diagnose on the internet, or was there a medical professional of some sort overseeing it (even a chiropractor or naturopath or something) and recommending this protocol?
            .
            If it is no longer sold in the US, are you in a country it is sold in, or are you buying yourself unapproved drugs off the internet?

          • kfunk937

            Regarding chelation, and curebies in general, this never gets old.

            I also note with some amusement that Cutler’s site claims Addison’s disease among those caused by dental fillings, while regardingcaroline cautions about chelation inducing adrenal fatigue. So the “cure” for an imaginary problem can cause an imaginary disease. That’s alt-med for ya.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            One thing I don’t get about these diagnoses that are invented and overdiagnosed in alternative medicine, is that isn’t the whole point of the Big Pharma conspiracy theory that doctors are all out to make money? If these diseases were real, why wouldn’t Big Pharma create a treatment for them? Especially if its a condition that is “managed” by regular supplements and homeopathic remedies, why wouldn’t they market their own vitamins as a treatment, or create a drug to treat the symptoms, instead of lose money on denying it exists.

          • Peter Olins

            In my opinion (seldom humble), chelation “therapy” is child abuse.

          • ciaparker2

            My autistic daughter has also always had delayed and still poor fine motor skills. They stopped even fooling with trying to improve her ability to write at school through OT many years ago. Many autists have the symptoms listed as mercury poisoning: difficulty speaking and poor coordination. Your list of symptoms of autism acts as though speech development is delayed, but eventually achieved, and that social commincation delays are the main problem. Au contraire. The problem is that the vaccine encephalitis (in addition to the mercury poisoning) damages the speech center of the brain so that the neural circuits pre-supplied with the necessary grammatical structures no longer work. I have had some success in teaching my daughter English as a foreign language, starting from lesson one in the Connect ESL book for middle-schoolers. My daughter at 13 had NEVER said There it is! Here it is! It’s in the drawer. It’s on the shelf. But she started using them independently when we did extensive work on them. It was amazing. Autism in part is DESTRUCTION of the language center of the brain to varying degrees, probably depending on how long the vaccine encephalitis lasted. Noam Chomsky did work in the ’60s positing that the language structures are physically programmed from birth on the neural circuits, waiting to be activated when the native language is heard. Structures not heard eventually dissolve. My daughter is now, at 17, up do Would you mind —ing…? Would you mind helping me? etc. Also It is used for—ing. It is used for taking pictures. I should point out that all the symptoms of mercury poisoning on your list are also symptoms of M.S., except for the decreased head size.

            This nonsense of yours is just another red herring dragged about by the pharma industry, WELL aware of what’s going to happen when the truth of its decades of lies comes out.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Difficulty speaking and poor coordination are where it overlaps, but that doesn’t mean that mercury poisoning and autism are the same thing. Its all about the way they present and the other symptoms too.
            .
            Like a headache. That is a symptom of many things-could be a migraine, could be because they need glasses, could even be a brain tumour. They all have different causes, but share a common symptom. A doctor would them examine the patient further and also consider other symptoms which are more condition exclusive, and then make a diagnosis.
            .
            I am fully aware that some autistic people never develop the ability to speak.
            .
            The mechanisms between the two conditions and their speech difficulties are completely different though. As it says, speech difficulties with mercury poisoning causes slurred, messy speech and it is due to the inability of the muscles to coordinate in the way necessary to speak. The person can speak, they just struggle to coordinate their muscles to speak clearly.
            .
            With autism, its different. From my experience, being autistic, I have the ideas in my head, but I struggle to put the ideas into words. Its like there’s a filter between brain and mouth that is blocking it all up, so I struggle to get it to come out. I can talk, other autistic people are different, for me, I can talk fairly simple concepts that don’t require much thought or words, and the stuff that is so scripted it comes out automatically but I cannot explain things without writing it out and then reading it as it just comes out disjointed and I also have a stammer, and sometimes the words just don’t come out and I don’t talk at all (which usually happens only if it is something complicated I have to explain or I get anxious). I can type fine though, because with typing I am not doing it in real time, it doesn’t get seen until I press send, so I can spend ages editing it and reorganising it.
            .
            There are also autistic speech patterns that are not seen in mercury poisoning, such as echolalia. Mine also includes noises I have picked up from my cat.

          • Always? So before she received vaccines then.

          • ciaparker2

            Hard to tell. She reacted with vaccine encephalitis to the hep-B vaccine, given without permission and against my express wishes, at midnight the day she was born. So, was she developmentally delayed in the hours between her birth at 7:30 in the morning and the vaccine given at midnight that day? Well, the reaction, the screaming syndrome, started Tuesday evening, four and a half days after she was born. All I can say is that she was nursing well before the reaction started, but stopped eating at all once it started: the pain of her swollen brain was too much for her to do more than try to suck, then turn her head away and scream. You really know nothing about this subject at all.

          • ciaparker2

            Nail it down.

          • Proponent

            (*comes by with a hammer to pry it up*)

          • Mike Stevens

            Sigh….
            Cia, you have told us that your daughter was born by emergency C section because of antenatal hypoxia, due to a true knot in the umbilical cord. After birth, she still had a low Apgar score, indicating intrapartum/antepartum brain hypoxia.
            As if that might not be enough to cause some autistic brain damage, you have also told us she has an hereditary defect in neuronal synapsing in the brain which is directly known to cause autism – Neurexin-1 gene deletion.

            This is why your daughter (and some family members) have autism, Cia. You may choose to blame a vaccine given after birth for causing “encephalitis”, but this diagnosis is untenable, medically speaking, and there is absolutely zero evidence she ever had encephalitis other than your [later formed] feelings that she might have. In fact, she was never even unwell enough for you to seek medical advice, so clearly she was not seriously ill with encephalitis.

            But you know all this, we have discussed it many times before…

          • ciaparker2

            The doctor said C was fine after she was born. She was released to go home with me Monday morning with no precautions. She nursed avidly until the reaction started Tuesday evening, and then she started screaming constantly and inconsolably, literally all night long Tuesday night: I sat up with her the whole night. She screamed sixteen hours a day until Saturday afternoon. These are the classic indications of an encephalitic reaction to the hep-B vaccine, described by several grieving parents at the congressional safety hearing in May 1999. Laila Belkin died of it, of course: Ben Converse almost died, but didn’t, but was later diagnosed with autism and many physical disabilities. C started feeding avidly again when the encephalitis ended on Saturday, and she gained back the weight she had lost in those days and grew quickly. She missed her language milestones, but was saying two words by 18 months. Both disappeared as soon as she got the DTaP booster, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. You can say what you like, it is in your brief to deny any and all vaccine damage, but my baby suffered vaccine encephalitis from the extremely dangerous hep-B vaccine, which should be given to none but babies born to mothers positive for hepatitis B. I was not. There was absolutely no reason to put my infant in mortal danger and then in fact to permanently and severely damage her brain just to profit Merck. Without even asking permission to give the shot.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Okay, I can believe autism and MS, and some of the other health related things your family has had over the years, that aren’t that rare….but in this thread alone you have mentioned mercury poisoning and encephalitis. Both of these things are uncommon and, had you actually done your research, are things that can very effectively kill you and will definitely kill you with no medical treatment. You cant self treat these things or you will die. You cant say that these things are classic indications of encephalitis, because if your daughter did have encephalitis you would have known for sure as the only way for her to still be alive is for her to have been in the ICU, where she would have a definite diagnosis. It doesn’t just happen one Tuesday, and then go back to normal by Saturday.
            .
            Where are the more severe symptoms. Am I honestly supposed to believe that the only thing that happened when your newborn daughter got encephalitis is that she cried 16 hours a day and struggled to feed? Not only that, you have the mildest very severe mercury poisoning ever known, considering you walked around with it for decades and have been receiving treatment for it for months on end and still full of mercury.
            .
            I think maybe you can also claim Munchausen’s as another addition to your list of very mild severe diseases.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “She nursed avidly until the reaction started Tuesday evening, and then she started screaming constantly and inconsolably, literally all night long Tuesday night: I sat up with her the whole night. She screamed sixteen hours a day until Saturday afternoon.”

            OMG!

            So.. what did they say when you brought her to emergency? The doctor’s office? Surely, in the instance of ‘ vaccine encephalitis’ you did something?

            ciaparker2: I did nothing of the sort.

            Ok, then..

          • “Hard to tell. ”

            For most plebians, sure. You’re about 9,999 experts rolled into one though.

            “She reacted with vaccine encephalitis to the hep-B vaccine, ”

            So what did her CT/MRI show? Obviously, it showed brain swelling but any other abnormal findings?

            “given without permission and against my express wishes, at midnight the day she was born. ”

            Ah, and what exactly happened here?

            “So, was she developmentally delayed in the hours between her birth at 7:30 in the morning and the vaccine given at midnight that day?”

            That’s the question.

            ” Well, the reaction, the screaming syndrome, started Tuesday evening, four and a half days after she was born.”

            A whole sixty hours later?

            ” All I can say is that she was nursing well before the reaction started, but stopped eating at all once it started”

            Well, which is it, Cia? Was it four-and-a-half days later or was just a few hours after she was born?

            ” the pain of her swollen brain was too much for her to do more than try to suck, then turn her head away and scream. ”

            It’s interesting that you say that she turned her head away. Encephalitis is usually associated with ‘stiff neck’ and they really mean it – not the weak imitation a cricked neck is. i.e. iirc, children with encephalitis usually are unable to turn their necks.

            Tell me about the characteristic signal intensity changes – were they focal or diffuse?

            What was the CSF pressure or CFS flow rate through LP if the former wasn’t possible?

            What was the white cell count?

            How about Glucose measurement?

            How about the Protein measurement?

            “You really know nothing about this subject at all.”

            Normally, one goes about learning more by seeking clarification. One normally goes about seeking clarification by asking questions….you know, like I’m doing now.

          • kfunk937

            Em… you do know that cia did not take her daughter to an emergency room? Encephalitis is serious and requires immediate attention. As near as we can make out, she only settled on this version of “history” after Judy Converse’s testimony was elevated to liturgical law defining a new catechism in the Church of VaccinesDidIt. Now repeated by rote.

            I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for confirmation.

          • She must have a CT or MRI scanner on hand at home though. 😉

            Or she’s such an expert diagnostician that she doesn’t need one to know the answers to the questions. 😉

          • shay simmons

            You might want to cultivate a better memory, parker. Or maybe just write down which version of events you’re posting on a given day.

          • FallsAngel

            I knew something sounded weird about this story. Babies can’t turn their heads intentionally until about a month of age. Do quit lying.
            https://www.babycenter.com/0_baby-milestones-head-control_6579.bc

          • shay simmons

            But…but…but the her recovery had NOTHING to do with the medical treatment she got!

          • AutismDadd

            I’m guessing you weren’t there Mike so can the crapola

          • Still kept you in in what way, Cia?

            Did they:

            a)Imprison you in some way
            or
            b)Point out that if you left, you’d be doing so AMA.
            or
            c)something else

          • AutismDadd

            Derp the twerp drooled…

          • How odd, @ciaparker2:disqus, you appear to have missed this question.

          • Mike Stevens

            As an infectious diseases specialist working in the NHS I can confirm that standard guidelines for us and for GPs is not to admit any case of measles unless there are complications which necessitate admission to hospital.
            Patients should be isolated at home to limit their contagiousness and limit any spread of infection.
            That is also the position in the USA.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Makes sense.
            If someone is infectious but not seriously ill hospital is not the place for them, as what happened if they passed on their disease to a cancer patient with a weak immune system, or someone recovering from transplant surgery, or infected a still too young to be vaccinated baby.

          • AutismDadd

            WHAT? That makes WAY TOO MUCH SENSE Mike. How about Modern Mainstream Medicine folks? Stay at home till you’re not contagious. Get the Nobel Prize ready. What about the automatic membership to the Natural Immunity Club Mike? Or the Natural Herd Immunity Club?

          • AutismDadd

            Knee Jerk like Brooke Dumme using one child with measles as a measuring stick above?

          • Mike Stevens

            “But you probably noticed that none of them died?”
            Cia, your compassion for kids needlessly harmed by a preventable infection is truly heartwarming.

            Just don’t try saying that at Autism One.

          • ciaparker2

            Your compassion for the millions with autism, bowel disease, or dozens of other conditions caused by the MMR (or other vaccines) is also heartwarming, as is your lack of concern for all those who die in later life of cancer which would have been prevented had the people gotten natural measles as children. I don’t know, did you forbid your children from learning to ride a bicycle because you were so concerned that they would definitely take a few painful spills while learning (I rode home, or, more probably walked, with my granny gown completely soaked in blood from two scraped knees when I was learning), and possibly be killed, as a certain number are every year, from bicycle accidents?

          • Mike Stevens

            I have every sympathy for those harmed by vaccines.
            There aren’t very many of them though, in comparison to the hundreds of millions harmed by vaccine-preventable infectious disease.

          • ciaparker2

            Gee, out of touch with the real world, too!

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, as you well know, I spend most days treating people with infectious diseases in an NHS hospital.
            I expect I see more in an average week than you have seen in a lifetime.

          • ciaparker2

            But out in the real world, serious cases of infectious disease are not common nor often seen, while cases of vaccine disability such as autoimmune disease and autism are rife. Your vision may be skewed because of the different concentration in your view.

          • Mike Stevens

            I do a gen med clinic for people referred with chronic diseases. I see a large number of them with possible autoimmune problems. I have only ever seen two adverse events following immunisation that have been possibly vaccine-related and severe enough for me to report to the MHRA (the UK equivalent of VAERS).
            One certainly was (severe sepsis in an arm following pneumovax II vaccination) and one possible case of narcolepsy following Pandemrix vaccine.

            The one who has lost touch with reality is you Cia, with your claims that include these:
            “every vaccine causes encephalitis”
            “50% of children have serious long term illness/reactions to vaccination”
            “Vaccines cause…autism, diabetes, ADHD, MS, epilepsy, Parkinson’s, autoimmune diseases etc etc”
            Your antipathy to conventional medicine, your slavish reliance on quack remedies and homeopathy for your own purposes also will give people a clue as to how far removed from reality you are, and which of us is “in the real world”.

          • Agreeing with someone or not is a separate variable to whether or not someone has compassion for that person.

          • AutismDadd

            How many died from the Disney thing? Its was ZERO wasn’t it?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, they were. They were malnourished. Everyone knows burger and chips from Disney are bad for you.

          • AutismDadd

            Buh Wah Ha Ha weak

          • Ron Roy

            The vaccine is deadlier, in malnourished populations, than the disease:”It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa,
            South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they
            were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other
            disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their
            immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis,
            etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there
            were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good
            statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did.”
            –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. Dr Kalokerinos
            interview——-International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995

          • shay simmons

            Those who are not poor and malnourished have nothing to fear from measles if they stay quiet and well-hydrated in bed throughout the illness and TAKE vitamin A and DON’T TAKE any fever reducers. And stay home for three weeks after the day the rash appears.

            Citation needed.

          • AutismDadd

            OOPS they forgot to mention how poor Romania is. Wonder why?

          • ciaparker2

            Somewhere between most of Europe and the malnourished countries of Africa, which would explain their measles mortality rate somewhere between the normal rate for developed countries and that of malnourished populations. But the truth is just too unsupportive of their agenda.

          • AutismDadd

            There are malnourished in developed nations too. Our food has been Frankensteined at all levels and proper food choice has become an art form for those who care what they eat.

          • Mike Stevens

            The Romanian kids dead from measles don’t matter according to Cia because…. Untermensch.

          • FallsAngel

            Their parents are probably communists as well.

          • Mike Stevens

            http://www.cia.gov
            Cia has her own gubmint website?!!!!
            😱😱😱

            😉

          • FallsAngel

            YES!!

          • AutismDadd

            What a YAWN-A-THON you shills put on.

          • ciaparker2

            I believe I have said many times that the issue is more difficult for parents of malnourished or immunocompromised children. They may very easily have a disabling reaction if they get the vaccine(s), but they also have a good chance of dying of usually harmless diseases like measles if they get them. I support whatever well-informed decision these parents make: I hope we all understand that either decision may in retrospect prove to be the wrong one, but there simply is no clear-cut “right” decision in such cases. 90% of children even in malnourished Africa recover from measles when they get it, and in these 90% measles is a boon, just as it is to most children in the developed world. Children who do NOT get measles, because they got the vaccine or just didn’t catch measles, according to Dr. Peter Aaby’s Senegal study, are FOUR times as likely to die in the subsequent five years as children who DO get measles, because measles is just such valuable training for the immune system. For the 10% in Africa, and other malnourished populations with mortality under 10%, but still high, who die from measles, the vaccine would probably have been a good intervention. It is a gamble, and one which I have no right or desire to force either way.

            However, the issue is different in the developed world, where measles is in the vast, vast majority of cases natural measles is an experience from which they will reap benefits for the rest of their lives. Healthy children have no obligation to compromise their own longterm health under pressure to get vaxxed, all the dangers and lost benefits be damned, from different quarters to possibly benefit starving children in Africa if measles might be eliminated everywhere.

            It is not that I don’t care about Romanian children dead from measles: I care about them, about their brethren killed or severely disabled by vaccines, and about all people everywhere killed or disabled either by disease or by vaccines. But it is absolutely not a question of Get vaxxed and then you probably won’t get VPDs, without a glance at the myriad ramifications of this policy.

          • AutismDadd

            Well done Cia, but its obvious Mike Stevens is worthless and not worth replying to directly. His constant insults and deflection of your obvious knowledge shows its time to stick a fork in him.

          • AutismDadd

            Is lying like a little child all you have left Mike?

      • Judith

        I wonder why they didn’t say anything about this:

        A toddler who developed severe neurological symptoms including blindness associated with chronic encephalitis and died following MMR vaccination was found to have vaccine-derived mumps virus in his brain, a new study reports.

        Published in the current issue of the journal, Acta Neuropathologica, the study is the first of its kind to conclusively demonstrate chronic brain damage in the form of “panencephalitis” due to a vaccine-derived strain of the mumps virus. In light of a recent epidemic of mumps in highly vaccinated populations, the research raises questions about the dangers of live vaccine virus mutations and about public health claims that the MMR is a completely safe and effective vaccine without serious side effects.

        MMR, BRAIN INFECTION AND DEATH

        The study describes an 18-month old infant who was diagnosed with Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disease (SCID) — a serious immune system defect that may follow infection — four months after he received the triple Measles Mumps Rubella vaccine that contains live viruses.

        The baby was treated for the illness but six months later became ill again with fever, rash, diarrhoea, lethargy and seizures. MRI scans of his brain showed evidence of encephalitis — brain inflammation due to infection.

        http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-did-it-mutated-mmr-mumps-virus-brain-child-caused-his-death-british-resea

        • ILoveJellybeans

          Its Green Med Info, not a trusted source, they literally let anything be posted as long as there is an alternative label on it.
          .
          Reading the actual study itself, it is evident that Green Med Info deliberately misled readers into thinking that the child’s immune disorder was caused by the vaccine. The paper itself is legit as far as I can tell, however the facts Green Med Info states are misleading. The MMR vaccine did not cause the child’s immune disorder, her reaction to the mumps virus from the vaccination was because she had an immune disorder, and the conclusion of the paper is that people with immune disorders should not receive live vaccines. Also because of her immune disorder, she would also have had the same reaction if she had mumps too.

          “Routine childhood vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella has virtually abolished virus-related morbidity and mortality. Notwithstanding this, we describe here devastating neurological complications associated with the detection of live-attenuated mumps virus Jeryl Lynn (MuVJL5) in the brain of a child who had undergone successful allogeneic transplantation for severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID). This is the first confirmed report of MuVJL5 associated with chronic encephalitis and highlights the need to exclude immunodeficient individuals from immunisation with live-attenuated vaccine.”
          .
          The study did not state that vaccines cause SCID, but that people with this condition shouldn’t receive live vaccines.
          .
          In fact, according to the Vaccine Information Statement being immunocompromised is a contraindication of having the MMR vaccine.

          https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/mmr.html

          • Judith

            Green med not a trusted source by Pharma’s mob but a very trusted independent source for those who seek the truth.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            How do you know Green Med Info is the truth, other than that it says it is the truth?
            .
            Why are they and any sources they promote trustworthy but all sources that are pro vax are not?
            .
            Why should we believe anything they say, when the only evidence that they have that the other sources are not to be trusted comes from themselves and other alternative sources with the same beliefs?

          • Judith

            As Robert Kennedy says about mainstream media – it is profit driven and cannot criticise pharma companies – they are inextricably combined. I Choose to trust independent honest sources such as Greed Med.

            “The pharmaceutical industry is so powerful,” RFK Jr explained. “They give $5.4 billion a year to the media. They’ve gotten rid of the lawyers, so there is no legal interest in those cases. They have really been able to control the debate and silence people like me.”

            Asked how things could get this bad, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. explained that in 1989 Congress granted Big Pharma “blanket legal immunity” when it comes to vaccines.

            Big Pharma became a law unto themselves. They can put toxic ingredients in your vaccines, they can seriously injure your child – but you cannot sue them.

          • ibid.

            Is it me, or do anti-vaxxers just whatever blog says what they want to hear and ignore reality? Fingers in the ears la-la-la.

            This is what every secondary school child learns: How can I tell if a website is credible?

          • AutismDadd

            Nice try writing a sentence. Fail

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Do you not think Green Med Info has an ulterior motive, for making people step away from mainstream medicine and turn to alternative medicine? The alternative medicine industry is worth a lot, and they also do unethical practices, such as overdiagnosing illnesses to sell things to people, doing faulty tests rigged for false positives, selling untested treatments with large claims attached, and scamming money from cancer patients.
            .
            Also what about the rest of the world? There are many countries that also do research into vaccine safety, and have a similar schedule. Not all of these countries get on with eachother all of the time, and America’s healthcare system is different, here in the UK, the whole Big Pharma thing would be incredibly inefficient and waste so much money.
            .
            And why should we trust him anyway?

          • Judith

            Gosh Jelly Beans – if you love iatrogenic medicine so much that is your choice. I personally have had great results from natural medicine and the only side effects have been great physical health and a fatter wallet. Mainstream medicine has lost its way – it has teamed up with Big Pharma and now tries to monopolise and force medicine on people.
            Dr. Lucian L. Leape opened medicine’s Pandora’s box in his 1994 JAMA paper, “Error in Medicine”.16 He began the paper by reminiscing about Florence Nightingale’s maxim – “first do no harm.” But he found evidence of the opposite happening in medicine. He found that Schimmel reported in 1964 that 20% of hospital patients suffered iatrogenic injury, with a 20% fatality rate. Steel in 1981 reported that 36% of hospitalized patients experienced iatrogenesis with a 25% fatality rate and adverse drug reactions were involved in 50% of the injuries. Bedell in 1991 reported that 64% of acute heart attacks in one hospital were preventable and were mostly due to adverse drug reactions. However, Leape focused on his and Brennan’s “Harvard Medical Practice Study” published in 1991.16a They found that in 1984, in New York State, there was a 4% iatrogenic injury rate for patients with a 14% fatality rate. From the 98,609 patients injured and the 14% fatality rate, he estimated that in the whole of the U.S. 180,000 people die each year, partly as a result of iatrogenic injury. Leape compared these deaths to the equivalent of three jumbo-jet crashes every two days.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Youre ignoring my question.
            .
            What about the rest of the world?
            .
            How does the Big Pharma conspiracy fit in with the many countries that have healthcare that is free at the point of use and paid for by taxes, but still use mainstream medicine.
            .
            This means that the more people who require their services, the more money the NHS has to spend on treating them.
            .
            If a million people have a condition that needs expensive medical treatment, requiring surgery (plus all the cost of equipment), a long hospital stay and lots of expensive drugs, that means that the NHS will be spending millions a year of their budget.
            .
            If a million people have a condition that could need that treatment, but then someone says “just give them turmeric by IV and give them a special diet and they will be cured in a month with no surgery or hospital stay”, that would save the MHS millions, meaning they can allocate more funds to other important things and pay their staff more. If it worked, they would use it. Big Pharma has no place here.
            .
            If a few million people have a chronic medical condition that needs to be managed by taking a drug every day for the rest of their lives, this means that the NHS will be spending millions a year of their budget (there are prescription costs for people unless they are unemployed, children or retired, but it is cheap and doesn’t cover the full cost of the drug).
            .
            If those few million people’s condition can be reversed in a month by a chiropractic adjustment and a few doses of a homeopathic remedy, that would save millions a year. If it worked, they would use it. Big Pharma is an American conspiracy thought up because of their weird inefficient healthcare system, it has no place here in the UK.
            .
            It wont even be putting the doctors out of work, if that’s what youre suggesting, as there will always be people needing treatment for something. People go to their chiropractor/naturopath/homeopath regularly. Patients would still need examining, diagnosing and prescribing treatment, even if the treatment is cheaper. They would still need companies to manufacture essential oils, supplements, homeopathic remedies etc. There will also be people needing emergency medical care, as there will still be people needing stitches, surgery, x rays etc. There will always be people who fall, get into car accidents, misuse power tools, fall off ladders, be burned, scalded, stabbed, bitten by animals….
            .
            There are posters up in the doctors office, telling people to stop requesting prescriptions for ordinary over the counter drugs, because it costs the NHS a lot of money and the generic ibuprofen pills that you can get at the supermarket for 20p for a pack of 16 are exactly the same thing. If they could decrease the costs even more by switching people from expensive drugs to inexpensive homeopathic treatments, they would do.

          • Also, more people in long-term hospital stay situations = fewer people working = less income tax = less money for the NHS.

          • sabelmouse

            shilly truly sees satan in alt med.

          • sabelmouse

            you should watch the german docu ”wir impfen nicht” . the difference between europe and usa is smaller than people think.

          • shay simmons

            They lied about the child’s cause of death, Judith. Are you okay with that?

        • ciaparker2

          Great comments, Judith, what a relief to find some integrity amid the squalor! Again, measles certainly can be very dangerous, even fatal, for malnourished patients in the developing world or former USSR. It can be dangerous for immunocompromised patients everywhere, but parents must be aware that vaccine reactions are the major cause of immunocompromise. Measles MUST be properly nursed, but the longterm benefits of going through natural measles would cause most parents of healthy, well-nourished children to refuse the vaccine and hope that their children will go through the natural disease.

          • Cia, if real measles is only fatal for malnourished patients in the developing world or former USSR…what does that say about kids who can’t handle the weakened version and their parents’ nursing skills?

          • shay simmons

            Oh, those children obviously deserve to die because…something.

        • Mike Stevens

          It’s amazing how you seize on a scientific report of a complication of MMR vaccination that is so rare that it is the first ever reported case in the scientific literature, despite hundreds of billions of doses of MMR being given, Judith.

          In contrast, for every 1000 measles cases, a child will die from it.

          But math and logic never were antivaxer strong points, were they?

          • Brian

            er… hundreds of millions of doses of MMR or single-digit billions.

            (Let’s see who is willing/faster at correcting the math- Mike or Judith?)

          • Mike Stevens

            You are right- several billion doses of MMR, not hundreds of billions.
            😉

          • AutismDadd

            Rare or not, there it is.

        • FallsAngel

          And who’s they? If greenmed knows about it, so do many other people. It’s not some conspiracy, Judith.

        • shay simmons

          Because greenmedinfo lies and you’re willing to give them a pass on it.

      • Judith

        KIEV, May 18 (RIA Novosti) – A total of 92 people, including 87 children, were hospitalized in eastern Ukraine as of early Sunday after measles vaccination, Ukraine’s emergencies ministry said.

        On May 13, a 17-year-old boy died after measles inoculation in the Donetsk Region. Two days later, over 60 people in eastern Ukraine were hospitalized after vaccination. A total of over 20,000 people in the region received the same vaccine.

        https://sputniknews.com/world/20080518107670116/

        • Michele

          2008

        • Mike Stevens

          I must point out that if 20,000 kids had acute measles in the Ukraine, then around 50 of them would die.
          Do those deaths matter to you Judith, or do you only “care” about the vanishingly rare case of serious vaccine harm in one case in a million?

          • ciaparker2

            If these 20,000 kids in the Ukraine were as well-nourished as most children in the First World, less than two of them would have died of measles. Judith has posted references to children who died from or were disabled by measles vaccination. Do you not care about them? The bottom line is that it presents some risk either to vaccinate or to get natural measles. The current trend is to exaggerate the dangers of measles and deny the dangers of the vaccine(s). We should all try to get an accurate picture of the risks and benefits of both the vaccine(s) and the disease(s). There is no completely safe choice. But if modern parents knew how relatively mild measles usually was and how beneficial it was for longterm health, and how devastatingly dangerous the vaccine(s) often are, I think most would rather their children got natural measles. It is important that they all know how important it is to give measles patients the appropriate dose of vitamin A and NOT give any fever reducers.

          • shay simmons

            Judith has posted references to children who died from or were disabled by measles vaccination. that turned out not to be correct.

            FTFY.

          • AutismDadd

            How juvenile. The adults are busy, go play nintendo

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia:
            If those 20,000 Ukraine kids hadn’t been communist, only 2 would have died of measles.
            And if those 30 Romanian kids hadn’t been gypsies, none would have died.
            So you see, measles is fun!

          • AutismDadd

            And you can prove this how?

          • Judith

            Dr Archie Kalokerinos has this to say:
            “It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa,
            South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis,
            etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did.”

            –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. Dr Kalokerinos

            interview——-International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995

          • shay simmons

            So since these children were dying of other causes, it was totes ok with you to let them die of the measles, too?

          • ciaparker2

            You didn’t understand the part about the vaccine reducing their immune function?

          • shay simmons

            The vaccine did not reduce their immune function; except in the eyes of the writer, who has made gross misrepresentations of his findings in his book.

          • AutismDadd

            Your proof would be what?

          • Mike Stevens

            ‘You didn’t understand the part about the vaccine reducing their immune function?’

            No, because it doesn’t.

          • Judith

            In actual fact he reduced the number of deaths from one in two down almost zero – that is a fact. You call him a quack. It shows that you care not for the person but only to steadfastly protect pharma interests.

          • Brian

            If the quack was telling the truth, why do his methods not give the same results when other doctors do it?

            Oh yeah, because he was lying, and his methods don’t work.

          • Abbie

            He reduced the number of deaths down almost zero by treating scurvy with vitamin C and by treating the zinc deficiency.

            There’s plenty of research on zinc deficiency in the aboriginal settlements, Judith. It had nothing to do with the vaccination programme.

          • shay simmons

            Where did he publish his clinical studies? Can’t find them on Pubmed.

          • AutismDadd

            Stooping VERY low Mike.

          • AutismDadd

            shay understand? snicker good one cia

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. No comment on vaccine adverse reactions I see.

          • Mike Stevens

            And who is he? ..just another lying quack.

          • Judith

            Good question Mike – he is an admirable man – died in 1982.

            ”Archie Kalokerinos, son of a Greek cafe owner, with plenty of brains
            and a medical degree, bounced around the world getting experience – not settling to surgery, trying general practice – until a problem came to his attention which was to preoccupy him for the rest of his life.
            That was the plight of the Aboriginal people, in particular the impossibly high infant mortality rate he encountered in regional NSW. In one Aboriginal community every second Aboriginal infant was dying. Kalokerinos adopted a radical ”counter intuitive” therapy – boosting the immune system – and brought the infant mortality rate there down to zero. He embraced preventative medicine, particularly in the beneficial use of vitamin C. Some of Kalokerinos’s theories were controversial, but he had some powerful support. The dual Nobel-prize winner Linus Pauling, in the foreword to Kalokerinos’s book Every Second Child, endorsed his views.

            In 1975, film director Phillip Noyce produced a documentary on him and Aboriginal healthcare entitled,

            God Only knows Why, But it Works. It was claimed that a ”Schindler’s List” could be drawn up, of children he had saved and their offspring
            Kalokerinos, worked with the Aboriginal Medical Service
            at Redfern from 1976 to 1982.

          • AutismDadd

            All mighty Mike could think of was quack…all out of mantra

          • shay simmons

            He conducted no research to support his claims, Judith. Man, you’re gullible.

          • AutismDadd

            Poor Mike. Has run out of mantra

          • FallsAngel

            Their parents were communists! /s

          • ciaparker2

            It’s actually 50% being seriously injured by vaccines, starting with asthma and allergies.

          • Mike Stevens

            Lying again, Cia…?

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Prove it.
            All you have is the statistics of “90% of people are vaccinated” and these percentages of the population have asthma, allergies, autism etc. No science to back up a connection between the two.

          • shay simmons

            Citation needed.

          • All you have to do is demonstrate that causative link.

          • ciaparker2

            For autoimmune diseases, the vaccine sensitizes the immune system to a vaccine ingredient, so that when the body encounters the ingredient or something closely resembling it again, it attacks it. It is often a body system, and the symptoms of the attack can be severe or fatal. See Heather Fraser’s The Peanut Allergy Epidemic for how the Hib vaccine has caused the worldwide explosion of peanut allergy, which never existed anywhere a hundred years ago.

            Any vaccine irritates the immune system into an inflammatory state in order to make it produce the desired antibodies. In many of those vaxxed, the inflammation becomes excessive, involves the brain, and can cause severe stroke-like damage, which we call autism, seizure disorders, ADHD, or learning disorders. The brain damage to the language center of the brain causes the language problems of autism, similar to that caused by a stroke.

          • shay simmons

            As you have been told multiple times, parker, there never has been any peanut product in any vaccine and Fraser either outright lied, or misinterpreted an experimental study for possible adjuvants that never were approved for inclusion in vaccines.. Porkies!

            http://www.snopes.com/pharmaceutical-companies-peanut-oil-vaccines/

          • 1)Demonstrate, not claim.
            2)So where’s the evidence of clots then?
            3)No, that is not a symptom.

          • shay simmons

            When are you going to stop helping Fraser spread her dishonest claims?

          • Ron Roy

            You’re the one spreading dishonest claims.

          • shay simmons

            Of which you still can’t identify one.

          • ibid.

            Judy’s basically innumerate. Anyway, that case from 2008 was not actual vaccine harm.

            It was an unrelated death, and panic fueled by … you guessed it.

          • AutismDadd

            bidy bidy bidy that’s all folks!

          • AutismDadd

            What about the 87 children hospitalized after vaccination? Could it be you could care less because it reflects poorly on your religion?

        • shay simmons

          The drop-off followed a high-profile case in 2008, when a boy died following a measles and rubella vaccination. His death was unrelated to the vaccination but incorrect media reporting of the case and a confused government response created a deep-seated mistrust of vaccinations among the public, which continues today.

          https://www.unicef.org/ceecis/media_24342.html

        • shay simmons

          His death was unrelated to the vaccine, Judith. I posted the link, are you going to correct your post?

      • ciaparker2

        So you’re saying that nutritional status makes no difference to measles fatalities? An example of why I said that you were insincere in much of what you said about vaccines. You know perfectly well that measles is a relatively mild disease in the vast, vast majority of those who have it in the developed world, and that mortality is very low, one or two in 10,000 cases. Taking fever reducers like Tylenol INCREASES mortality, as they prevent the immune system from effectively fighting the disease, but it is still low mortality overall. In malnourished AFRICA, the mortality is as high as 10%. In the developed world, measles is usually unpleasant, causing a high fever, which should not be interfered with, for two and a half to three days, but is invaluable for the child’s longterm good health and effective immune system.

        • ILoveJellybeans

          A person who is already in good health obviously stands better chances of survival when they get sick compared to someone who is weak from malnutrition, but measles can kill healthy people too.
          .
          One or two in 10000 is correct (according to the NHS website its 1 in 5000, so same thing) but that many cases seems pretty big when you consider that measles is highly contagious and without vaccination, everyone would get it. Much less people have severe adverse reactions from the actual measles vaccine, so your chances are better when vaccinated.
          .
          Youre wrong that it is invaluable for the child’s long term good health though. There are other complications of measles that can cause long term disabilities, such as blindness, brain damage from encephalitis, heart and nervous system problems and 1 in 25000 will develop something called SSPE, a fatal brain complication that can appear out of the blue and kill them many years after recovering from measles
          http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Complications.aspx
          .
          Also studies have shown that a measles infection temporarily suppresses the immune system, making you more vulnerable to catching other diseases that can kill you for a period of time afterwards.
          https://www.princeton.edu/news/2015/05/07/deadly-shadow-measles-may-weaken-immune-system-three-years
          .
          The only positive thing about getting measles is that once you’ve had it, you most likely wont get it again as your body will build up immunity to it. The vaccine also does that, but the chances of severe reactions are much lower, and the sore arm and slight fever for about a day or two afterwards is much more pleasant than a week of a high fever, rash, sore eyes, tiredness, aches and pains etc.

          • Mike Stevens

            Case fatality for acute measles varies greatly.
            In well nourished, previously healthy kids with access to excellent medical care and facilities like ITU it is around 1:5,000.
            In reality, many of those good prognostic factors are absent, which is why case fatality has been shown to be as low as around 1:500 even in some “first world” countries, and as high as 1:10 in impoverished countries without medical facilities.

            Cia loves to talk about how “low” the case fatality of these vaccine preventable infections is. She has previously stated that a death rate of 1:200 for infants with pertussis is not of concern, and how hundreds of measles deaths in the USA each year are “no big deal”.
            Yet if one child in a million dies of a vaccine reaction, she regards that as an unmitigated tragedy.

          • ciaparker2

            It was 450 deaths a year out of four million measles cases. And most of those who died were previously immunocompromised. Parents of immunocompromised children must research the vaccine issue very carefully before making the decision. It is not justified, however, to damage everyone hoping the protect a few. And yes, I think one death out of 200 pertussis cases in newborns in the first three months of life is a low mortality rate. Parents must know that young infants must be sheltered at home and potential germ bearers must be kept away from them, to protect them from pertussis and everything else. However, if they get pertussis anyway, intravenous vitamin C will cure them rapidly. The only people at risk from pertussis are these very young infants (and some of the immunocompromised). Vaccination will not protect these newborns even if they get the first dose of DTaP at two months, as is standard in the US, and doing so more than doubles their incidence of asthma at the age of seven (Manitoba study). So vaccination does not help them at all until, in some cases, they are beyond the age at which pertussis could be dangerous for them. And, of course, the acellular pertussis vaccine used now is HIGHLY ineffective at best, protecting only half of toddlers who get it and a third of school-aged children. My baby got the first three at two, four, and six months, got pertussis anyway at eight months and gave it to me, and when she got the booster at 18 months it erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later.

          • Brian

            Lot’s of false information in cynthia parkers’ post, if anyone wants examples, feel free to ask.

          • FallsAngel

            I think most pro-vaxers know she’s lying about most everything.

          • AutismDadd

            Hilarious. Pro-vaxxers are suffering a pandemic of denial

          • AutismDadd

            And you? You post nonsense.

          • shay simmons

            “. And most of those who died were previously immunocompromised. ”

            Citation needed.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia:
            Who cares if kids get diseased, vitamin C will save them all!!!!

          • AutismDadd

            MIKE: don’t talk to me about adverse events…I’ll put fingers in my ears…

          • Well, never mind Mike then. Let’s talk about adverse events ourselves – could you define adverse events, as you understand them, for me?

          • AutismDadd

            You must be terribly stupid.

          • No, that’s called not being physic.

          • AutismDadd

            psycho…learn to spell

          • ciaparker2

            I’m laughing!

          • sabelmouse

            user is blocked by me. what’s so funny?

          • AutismDadd

            My joke of course

          • ciaparker2

            He’s just trying to put in his time and make you waste yours.

          • AutismDadd

            If you see how Jesus Baby takes up Lowell’s time you’d see a prime example of that. And of course the Piranha that follow you around talking in circles

          • ciaparker2

            The Jesus Baby the original of whom comments at AoA? Another one whose nym has been napped?

          • AutismDadd

            The Pharma troll

          • ciaparker2

            It would save a lot of them.

          • And your evidence of the causative link, Cia?

          • ciaparker2

            Slowest kid in the class, I see. NWMT

          • It’s strange, Cia, how you can’t even outwit the slowest kid in the class. And it’s interesting how it’s worth your time to make all these claims but when it comes time to putting up evidence, those same claims are not worth your time.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s a very good point, for all these walls of text cia posts, suddenly providing proof is not worth her time.

          • shay simmons

            Why is it always worth your time to post these ridiculous screeds but when you’re asked to provide corroboration, suddently it’s NWMT?

          • Dave’s Not Here

            I’ve decided to refer to them as disease advocates.

            I can listen to someone tout the “benefits” of contracting measles for only so long before I realize they are for spreading diseases as some twisted form of weeding out the weak more than they are against vaccination.

          • ciaparker2

            Your immune system only becomes strong and competent through practice. If you never go through medium-grade febrile illnesses, it remains weak and incompetent. If you get vaccines in your terror of mild diseases, you screw it up, and emerge with neurological and/or autoimmune disease. Snowflakes may cower in the shadows and quake at the mere mention of germs, but then they melt in the sunlight. It’s better to take on the struggle and emerge stronger and healthier for life.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s a crock of compost cia. Your immune system knows what to do when it’s challenged, just as your cardiac system, respiratory system, digestive system, etc all know what to do.

          • ciaparker2

            But if you never exercise and are out of shape, your heart and lungs will not fare as well under any stressful event as if you exercised. Students who don’t study their lessons, think, and exercise their minds flunk their tests. The immune system is the same. It absolutely requires practice to hone its skills and learn its trade.

          • FallsAngel

            No, the immune system is not the same as what you describe cia. You are totally clueless about how it works.

          • AutismDadd

            Then please explain to us EXACTLY how the immune system works.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, she covered it in 7th grade.

          • Did you ever stop to consider that practice is exactly what vaccines do?

          • AutismDadd

            Then how do vaccines train the immune system as you and the other parrots claim?

          • ciaparker2

            Then why do some people have immunocompromised systems, in which their immune systems do not react appropriately when challenged?

          • FallsAngel

            There are many things that cause immune compromise, but you won’t “train” an immunocompromised immune system by disease. The person will just get an overwhelming infection. This is way above your pay grade, cia.

            ETA: A normally functioning immune system doesn’t have to be “trained”.

          • shay simmons

            I see your problem — you’re confusing your immune system with a border collie.

          • AutismDadd

            pathetic

          • ILoveJellybeans

            There are plenty of other diseases and germs people can get to use their immune system on instead of the ones that kill one in 50000 of them.
            .
            Coughs and colds are genuinely mild illnesses for most people, how many people die of the common cold? Then there are the billions of other bacteria you come into contact with every time you touch pretty much every surface that exists, or the bacteria they pick up from playing outside in the mud, or from applying the 5 second rule to a dropped cookie.
            .
            The choice isn’t completely sterile environment that an immune system cannot encounter any bacteria, or no vaccines and catch everything. Vaccinated kids might not have a chance of being the one in 50000 that die of measles, but they get plenty of other mild illnesses that are going round. Theres no vaccine for colds, ear infections, coughs, all the stuff people get sometimes that are either self limiting and go away soon or just require a course of antibiotics.

          • Mike Stevens

            1 in 5,000 dies of measles.
            Vaccinate, and the risk is almost negligible.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Youre right, thanks, added an extra 0. 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            😉 np

          • AutismDadd

            According to vaccine pushers Mike.

          • Judith

            A recent Consumer Reports study stated that “Every year an estimated 648,000 people in the U.S. develop infections during a hospital stay, and about 75,000 die, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).” Where is the uproar from the community, from the media, to this very real ongoing epidemic? I guess there is no money to be made from making hospital visits safe…….

          • Mike Stevens

            Please try and stay on topic Judith, and not spawn a shed load of red herrings.

          • Where’s the cite for this, Judith, so we can all see the quote in situ?

          • Judith
          • Ah, thank you for that, Judith.

            That shows us that they are working on making hospital visits safer:

            ““Our nation is making progress in preventing healthcare-associated infections through three main mechanisms: financial incentives to improve quality, performance measures and public reporting to improve transparency, and the spreading and scaling of effective interventions,” said Patrick Conway, M.D., Deputy Administrator for Innovation and Quality for Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) and CMS chief medical officer. “This progress represents thousands of lives saved, prevented patient harm, and the associated reduction in costs across our nation.”

            The federal government considers elimination of health care-associated infections a top priority and has a number of ongoing efforts to protect patients and improve health care quality. In addition to CDC’s expertise and leadership in publishing evidence-based infection prevention guidelines, housing the nation’s healthcare-associated infection laboratories, responding to health care facility outbreaks and tracking infections in these facilities, other federal and non-federal partners are actively working to accelerate the prevention progress that is happening across the country. These initiatives are coordinated through the National Action Plan to Prevent Healthcare-Associated Infections and include CMS’ Partnership for Patients, CMS Quality Improvement Organizations, and the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality’s Comprehensive Unit-based Safety Program.”

            Now, in the meantime, maybe we should consider ways of making it less likely that people need to go to hospital?

          • shay simmons

            Is there some reason why you don’t cite the rest of the article, Judith?

          • Judith

            You think vaccines are making children and the population healthier – not so. Many people suspect the ever increasing number of vaccinations (69 of 14 vaccines before the age of 18) which contain toxic ingredients could be causing this increase and damaging the immune system.

            https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/birthdefects-dd-keyfindings.html

            Data from the study showed that developmental disabilities (DDs) are common: about 1 in 6 children in the U.S. had a DD in 2006–2008. These data also showed that prevalence of parent-reported DDs has increased 17.1% from 1997 to 2008. This study underscores the increasing need for health, education and social services, and more specialized health services for people with DDs.

            The prevalence of any DD in 1997–2008 was 13.87%

            Prevalence of learning disabilities was 7.66%;

            Prevalence of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) was 6.69%;

            Prevalence of other developmental delay was 3.65%; and,

            Prevalence of autism was 0.47%.

            Over the last 12 years, the

            Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%—that’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006–2008 compared to a decade earlier;

            Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;

            Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,

          • ILoveJellybeans

            “Many people suspect…” isn’t a statistic.
            .
            As I said, youre just using the statistics for these conditions and the number of vaccinations, and correlating the two, but correlation does not equal causation.
            .
            Also, today’s vaccines are more efficient. Although there are more shots for more diseases, there are less antigens in each vaccine as there was before.
            .
            The reason why the rates are growing is because of better diagnosis, not more people having them. Like with autism. The diagnostic criteria has been broadened, so underdiagnosed groups are now more likely to get a diagnosis, where before they would have just struggled and flown under the radar. As well as more children being diagnosed, there are also more adults receiving a late in life diagnosis.

          • Yeah, there’s been some discussion about this and you’d be surprised how typical a pattern something like this is:

            Therapist/Doctor/Other Professional: *tells parents their kid is on the spectrum*
            Parent/Grandparent: What?! (S)he’s just like I was at that age!”
            T/D/OP: Yeah….about that…

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Yeah, my dad didn’t realise he was on the autistic spectrum until he was in his thirties. He can also name a few other adult relatives in pretty much every generation of the family who also share these traits, or were like my cousin and I were as kids and are possibly autistic, but just don’t know it (and what benefit is there to a diagnosis at 90?).

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Oh, that makes total sense….

            We should all stop eating ice cream, its deadly! It gives you skin cancer! Every time the ice cream sale rate goes up, the number of sunburns go up, and sunburn leads to skin cancer! Ice cream is so deadly!

            WRONG! That is not how science works. Correlation does not equal causation.

            The number of sunburns and ice cream goes up at the same time, because both are things that happen when the weather is hot.

            The number of autism/ADHD/learning disability diagnoses, and number of diseases vaccinated for are because both are things that happen when medical science becomes better at diagnosing, treating and preventing medical conditions.
            .
            Correlation can be a start, then they will test it out, in studies like these:

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424
            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25898051

            If the correlation and causation are proven unconnected by scientific studies, then it is proven false.
            .
            Correlation equals causation is not proof.
            For there to be proof, there needs to be scientific proof connecting the two, and some questions need answering.
            .
            How do vaccines cause autism? There are two theories that contradict eachother. Its either the MMR or thimerosal.
            .
            The MMR doesn’t and never has contained thimerosal, so these theories cannot both be true.
            .
            Evidence against thimerosal causing autism:
            -Thimerosal was phased out of childhood vaccines over 10 years ago, this has had no effect on the autism diagnosis rate.
            -Mercury poisoning and autism have completely different symptoms (coincidentally, unless mercury poisoning symptoms are described on a website claiming the two are the same, hmmmmmm).
            -Thimerosal isn’t mercury, its a compound, it is a compound of the least harmful form of mercury. The most toxic form of mercury is found in higher numbers in tuna, and consumption of tuna does not cause autism.
            .
            Evidence against the measles vaccine in the MMR causing autism:
            -Wakefield’s study was a fraud, and there was no trace of the measles virus found in the bowels of the children in the study.
            -The vaccine strain measles virus is weaker than the wild measles virus. Measles infection does not cause autism, even though measles infections pre vaccine and measles vaccine rates today are the same. If one causes autism, the other would too.
            -There is no explanation of how the measles virus causes autism, other than something to do with leaky guts (fake disease made up in alternative medicine that has never been described in scientific literature), intersecting with another common virus (how???) or rope worms (which have been studied and proven to be 100% human intestinal tissue that has been sloughed off because you shouldn’t put bleach up your butt)

          • This is for Judith’s benefit but I can’t be bothered dealing with Judith right this minute.

            “The Weather Being Hot” is what we call a lurking variable.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxSUqr3ouYA&ab_channel=AsapSCIENCE

          • Judith

            In the USA there has been one death from measles in the past 10 years with an immune compromised woman who was vaccinated. Using the MedAlerts search engine, which facilitates an online search of the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database, as of March 3rd, 2016 there have been 7692 serious adverse events Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in connection with measles vaccine since 1990, with over half of those occurring in children three years old and under. Of these events 397 were deaths with over half of the deaths occurring in children under three years of age. Adverse events following MMR vaccination reported to VAERS include:

            lupus (autoimmune connective tissue disorder);
            Guillain-Barre syndrome (inflammation of the nerves);
            Encephalitis;
            aseptic meningitis (inflammation of the lining of the brain);
            deafness;
            cardiomyopathy (weakening of the heart muscle);
            hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes (collapse/shock);
            convulsions;
            subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE);
            ataxia (loss of ability to coordinate muscle movements);
            parathesia (numbness, burning, prickling, itching, tingling skins sensation indicating nerve irritation)
            Transverse Myelitis
            Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM)
            http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-vaccine-injury-death.aspx
            http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/20132-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-zero-measles-deaths-since-04

            http://investmentwatchblog.com/zero-us-measles-deaths-in-10-years-over-100-deaths-from-the-vaccine/

          • ILoveJellybeans

            In the USA, there has been so few deaths from measles because measles is now rare, due to vaccination. If 1 in 5000 people who get measles die, and only a few people get measles, there obviously isn’t going to be many deaths.
            .
            Also 7692 serious adverse reactions to the measles vaccine since 1990, and 397 of those being deaths actually makes the measles vaccine very safe, considering almost four million babies a year are born, and 90% of them will be vaccinated.
            .
            1990 was 27 years ago.

            Approximately 3,600,000 babies out of the four million a year are vaccinated.

            In 27 years, that is about 97,200,000 babies that are vaccinated. Ninety seven million. 7692 seems like a very small number compared to 97 million.
            .
            That is 284 adverse reactions to the vaccine every year, and 14 of those die.
            .
            That means 0.007% of people who get vaccinated have a serious adverse reaction, and 0.0003% of people who get vaccinated will die.
            .
            That means if you lined up 100 people, the percentage of vaccine injuries in proportion to that would equal the person at the end’s toenail.
            .
            You have more chance of being hit by lightening on the way to the doctors office to get the vaccination.
            .
            To make it fair, lets compare it to the deaths from measles back when instead of the majority getting vaccinated, the majority all got measles.
            .
            “Before the measles vaccination program started in 1963, about 3 to 4 million people got measles each year in the United States. Of those people, 400 to 500 died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 developed encephalitis (brain swelling) from measles”
            https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html
            .
            3-4 million a year. That’s the same amount who are now vaccinated!
            .
            Lets compare, 27 years of measles V 27 years of measles vaccines.
            .
            Severe complications:
            Vaccine: 7692, which works out to 284 a year
            Measles: 1,296,000, which works out to 48,000 severe complications that required hospitalisation.
            .
            Deaths:
            Vaccine: 397, which works out to 14 a year
            Measles: 10,800-13,500, which works out to 400-500 a year.
            .
            Statistics: Not so scary when you put them in perspective.

          • Judith, what does the very first page of VAERs say?

          • ciaparker2

            Those four childhood diseases are the most effective in training the immune system for a lifetime of service. “The cellular immune system, in contrast, lacking former challenges of the so-called ‘minor diseases’ of former times (measles, mumps, chickenpox, and rubella), may be going through the process of atrophy of disuse, also being further compromised by the immunosuppressant effects of combination viral vaccines. It is true that there are many other forms of viral challenges today, but only these four significantly challenged and therefore strengthened the immunity of the epithelial and endothelial tissues of the body and their associated organs.” Buttram, Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis?, 28).

          • ILoveJellybeans

            So what do they have that other common childhood infectious diseases that nobody dies from do not? You’ve quoted the least important part of the source. I don’t care what someone thinks, what I want is the results of the scientific study, the science behind how it works…there is that, right?
            .
            Is the source implying that cases of child abuse are actually caused by vaccines?

          • kfunk937

            Is the source implying that cases of child abuse are actually caused by vaccines?

            Yes and no. Yes, in that it may have been only implied in this paper. No, in that Buttram, Ayoub and others comprise a reprehensible cohort whose “expert” testimony in child-abuse fatality cases explicitly blames vaccination for homicide.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            That’s terrible, they are literally excusing abusive parents and giving them a way to get away with murder

          • kfunk937

            Yeah. Additionally, using it to advance their cause. Sometimes I wonder if it’s just a convenient ruse.

          • Mister Atoz

            The shallow side of me types…

            “My, what an unfortunate surname Mr. B. has.”

          • FallsAngel

            That’s nuts, cia! Your immune system knows what to do automatically when exposed to a foreign substance. Sort of like turning on a light switch.

          • But Cia, if medium grade febrile illnesses are required, then why on earth would mild diseases help?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8988160b0ef8678b1253af43add2ff6030d29d1fbd8f61601b844dffcb78290.png

          • Mike Stevens

            Yup.
            The Untermensch.
            The antivaxers/disease advocates’ view of people who are not perfect….
            Callous, inhumane and despicable.

          • AutismDadd

            Dug up some low level mantra Mike?

          • ciaparker2

            So someone’s coopted Dave’s Not Here’s nym now? And you were indignant when they did that to you!

          • sabelmouse

            you seem somewhat lacking in sense, and maturity.

          • AutismDadd

            Correct. Among Pro-vacs its pandemic

          • ciaparker2

            He stole the nym of the real Dave’s Not Here. Remember him?

          • sabelmouse

            no. there’s SO MANY of them.

          • SciGuy

            Word.. err, my words. I should be flattered.

          • AutismDadd

            But aren’t?

          • Dave’s Not Here

            Apologies for blatantly stealing it.

            Will a hundred upvotes make us even?

          • SciGuy

            It’s a start 😉 You’re lucky I hadn’t written the journal editors yet!

            It was really spooky reading it. I did a triple take.

          • Judith

            Clinically observed chickenpox was associated with a significantly lower risk of a first episode of MS in children (Table 3). After adjustment for a family history of MS or of another autoimmune disease.

            http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/169/10/1260.full

            http://www.ovariancancer.org/2010/06/25/mumps-and-ovarian-cancer-modern-interpretation-of-an-historic-association/

            MUMPS: Researchers investigated whether mumps might engender immunity to ovarian cancer through antibodies against the cancer-associated antigen MUC1 abnormally expressed in the inflamed parotid gland. MEASLES: Albonico et al found that adults are significantly protected against non-breast cancers — genital, prostate, gastrointestinal, skin, lung, ear-nose-throat, and others — if they contracted measles (odds ratio, OR = 0.45), rubella (OR = 0.38) or chickenpox (OR = 0.62) earlier in life. [Med Hypotheses 1998; 51(4): 315-20].

            MEASLES: Montella et al found that contracting measles in childhood reduces the risk of developing lymphatic cancer in adulthood [Leuk Res 2006; 30(8): 917-22].

            MEASLES: Alexander et al found that infection with measles during childhood is significantly protective — it cuts the risk in half — against developing Hodgkin’s disease (OR = 0.53) [Br J Cancer 2000; 82(5): 1117-21].

            MEASLES: Glaser et al also found that lymph cancer is significantly more likely in adults who were not infected with measles, mumps or rubella in childhood [In J Cancer 2005; 115(4): 599-605].

            COMMON INFECTIONS: Gilham et al found that infants with the least exposure to common infections have the greatest risk of developing childhood leukemia [BMJ 2005; 330: 1294].

            EARLY EXPOSURE TO INFECTIONS:Urayama et al also found that early exposure to infections is protective against leukemia [Int J Cancer 2011; 128(7): 1632-43]. Read more….

            CHICKEN POX (VARICELLA Canniff J., Donson A.M., Foreman N.K., Weinberg A. Cytotoxicity of glioblastoma cells mediated ex vivo by varicella-zoster virus-specific T cells. J Neurovirol. 2011;17(October (5)):448–454. [PubMed] Canniff et al. reported an association between those individuals with clinical or laboratory evidence of varicella-zoster virus (VZV) infection and lower risk of glioma.A glioma is a type of tumor that starts in the brain or spine. It is called a glioma because it arises from glial cells.

            CHICKEN POX IN CHILDHOOD: Silverberg J.I., Kleiman E., Silverberg N.B., Durkin H.G., Joks R., Smith-Norowitz T.A. Chickenpox in childhood is associated with decreased atopic disorders, IgE, allergic sensitization, and leukocyte subsets. Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2012;23(February (1):50–58. [PubMed Silverberg et al. also reported that wild-type VZV infection up to 8 years of age was found to be protective against atopic disorders that are thought to be “mediated by suppression of IgE production and allergic sensitization, as well as altered leukocyte distributions.

            Chicken Pox references taken from Goldman, King STUDY

            The universal varicella (chickenpox) vaccination program now requires a booster vaccine for children and an HZ vaccine to boost protection in adults. However, these are less effective than the natural immunity that existed in communities prior to licensure of the varicella vaccine. Hence, rather than eliminating varicella in children as promised, routine vaccination against varicella has proven extremely costly [60], [62] and [168] and has created continual cycles of treatment and disease.

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X12007761

            http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/2015/03/10/studies-show-natural-mumps-measles-chicken-pox-influenza-viruses-protect-against-cancer/

          • Brian

            Isn’t it telling that these have huge confidence intervals, and when the studies are repeated, the conclusions aren’t?

            Do you know what repeatability means, Judith?

          • FallsAngel

            You know, since virtually everyone got chickenpox, measles and mumps pre-vaccine, why on earth did anyone get MS, ovarian cancer, genital, prostate, gastrointestinal, skin, lung, ear-nose-throat, and other cancers, lymphatic cancer, glioma, atopic disorders, IgE (IgE what, Judith?), allergic sensitization, and luekocyte subsets (what again?)?

          • Judith

            Interesting point – have you taken note of how cancer is on the rise, especially among children. There is evidence that the SV40 virus is passing on through generations – also that it may still be in some polio vaccines as well as the lack of protection from natural childhood diseases.

            A study, coordinated by the World Health Organization’s (WHO) International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), published in Lancet Oncology shows that childhood cancer was 13 percent more common between 2001-2010 than in the 1980s, totaling to an annual incidence rate of 140 per million children aged 0-14 years worldwide.1 2

            Although the data for this study was gathered from 153 cancer registries in 62 countries, the results are predominantly based on a child population coverage of almost 100 percent in North America and Western Europe.

            Cancer risk associated with simian virus 40 contaminated polio vaccine.

            RESULTS: Our analysis indicates increased rates of ependymomas (37%), osteogenic sarcomas (26%), other bone tumors (34%) and mesothelioma (90%) among those in the exposed as compared to the unexposed birth cohort.

            CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that there may be an increased incidence of certain cancers among the 98 million persons exposed to contaminated polio vaccine in the U.S.; further investigations are clearly justified.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10472327/

            Where did the SV40 come from that Caused Alexander’s Tumor?

            According to the published literature there were several plausible routes by which SV40 could be transmitted to humans: contaminated polio vaccines,[25] blood,[26] and transplacentally,[27]while the child is still in the womb. My wife and I underwent a series of tests to determine whether or not we carried the virus. Blood, urine, and semen were checked and rechecked using different methodologies including DNA PCR. Different SV40 laboratories were involved from the United States and Europe.[28] All tests were negative for SV40. In addition, my wife had “banked” her cord blood[29] with a private lab when Alexander was born. This blood was also tested by PCR and was negative for SV40 providing evidence that neither Alexander nor his mother carried the virus at the time of Alexander’s birth. Of the three plausible routes of transmission, this suggested that one or more of the polio vaccines Alexander was administered contained SV40.

            http://www.sv40foundation.org/alexander.html

          • FallsAngel

            A lot of that SV-40 stuff is woo, Judith.

          • shay simmons

            HI, Judith! I notice that the research you cite is from 1999. Can you please provide a cite that shows how many people have actually come down with SV40 induced cancer in the last 20 years?

          • Judith

            There is abundant research that shows that SV40 is associated with modern cancers
            and findings of recent SV40 infections in four children born after 1982 suggest infections were transmitted vertically along gene lines.

            Association between SV40 and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.
            Review article
            Butel JS, et al. Leuk Lymphoma. 2003.
            Abstract
            Millions of people worldwide were inadvertently exposed to live simian virus 40 (SV40) between 1955 and 1963 through immunization with SV40-contaminated polio vaccines. Although the prevalence of SV40 infections in humans is not known, numerous studies suggest that SV40 is a pathogen resident in the human population today. SV40 is a potent DNA tumor virus that is known to induce primary brain cancers, bone cancers, mesotheliomas, and lymphomas in laboratory animals. SV40 oncogenesis is mediated by the viral large tumor antigen (T-ag), which inactivates the tumor suppressor proteins p53 and pRb. Duringthe last decade, independent studies using different molecular biology techniques have shown the presence of SV40 DNA, T-ag, or other viral markers in primary human brain and bone cancers and malignant mesotheliomas.

            Recent large independent controlled studies have shown that SV40 T-ag DNA is significantly We conclude that SV40 is significantly associated with some types of NHL and that lymphomas should be added to the types of human cancers associated with SV40.

            Polio, hepatitis B and AIDS: an integrative theory on a possible vaccine induced pandemic.

            “The hypothesis that simian virus 40 (SV40) infected polio vaccines may be linked to the evolution of acquired immunodeficiency disorder (AIDS), and certain cancers, has been advanced. Most recently, investigators discussed the likelihood of gene-reshuffling following SV40 infection as a precursor to acquired immune dysfunction. Findings of recent SV40 infections in four children born after 1982 suggest infections were transmitted vertically along gene lines. Earlier observations proved activation of a retrovirus gene by a hepatitis B virus (HBV) protein. This paper proposes a new integrative theory on the origin of AIDS. It advances the possibility of genetic recombinations with oncogene activation by HBV involving simian viruses that likely infected polio vaccinated blood donors to the initial hepatitis B (HB) vaccine trials conducted on gay men in New York City and Ugandan Blacks in the early to mid-1970s. The socio-economic and even military ramifications associated with this politically challenging thesis are discussed.”

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11388787/ 2001

          • shay simmons

            You didn’t answer the question, Judith. How many people have been clinically diagnosed with SV40-induced cancers since 1999?

          • Mike Stevens

            Huh what…?
            Vaccines caused HIV infection/AIDS now?

            Please Judith. Step back from the keyboard, take a few days off to go looking at volcanoes and geysers or something on horseback and reconnect with reality.

          • shay simmons

            HIV is spread by needle sharing and vaccines are administered mostly through injections. It seems that’s enough of a connection for some people.

          • kfunk937

            Horowitz: complete loon, literally. Notably smacked down by not only the FDA, but NASA. How much of a crank must one be to get NASA’s attention?

            Or, as Orac once put it, The clueless cite the ignorant to argue againt vaccines.

          • Von Braun

            Whorowitz thinks John Lennon was assassinated by the Military–Industrial Complex because he tuned his guitar—and piano—to the “love frequency” of 528 Hz!

            That would make the “love wavelength” (in air)…

            λ=c/f
            λ=(340ms⁻¹)/538Hz
            λ=(.632m)
            λ=63.2cm

            …sixty three and ²⁄₁₀ centimetres, exactly equal to 3 Ron Jeremy Equivalents (RJE).

            All love wavelengths—and their corresponding frequencies—are measured in octaves of Ron Jeremy Equivalents.

            John Lennon knew this, and so did Thomas Pynchon.

          • Hieronymus Squeefquizzle IV

            Step back from the keyboard, take a few days off to go looking at volcanoes and geysers …

            “This represents Mike’s unconscious desire—sprouting from his id—to get jizzed on the face by a large male fatherly figure.”—Freud

          • Mike Stevens

            In the days when everyone got measles, nobody died and people lived forever. Or so the antivaxers say.

          • ciaparker2

            No one got MS or schizophrenia before industrial mercury in the environment, starting in the late eighteenth century.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s bull-puckey, cia!

            “Until the early years of the 19th century, physicians relied on superstition, hearsay, and “the wisdom of the ancients” to care for the sick. Medical ideas were not scientifically tested. Even so, physicians were often good observers and we can look back today and identify people who undoubtedly had MS from descriptions written as long ago as the Middle Ages. ”
            https://www.nationalmssociety.org/NationalMSSociety/media/MSNationalFiles/Brochures/Brochure-History-of-Multiple-Sclerosis.pdf
            Middle Ages: 476 CE to the beginning of the Renaissance in the 14th century.
            http://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages

            “The word “schizophrenia” is less than 100 years old. However the disease was first identified as a discrete mental illness by Dr. Emile Kraepelin in the 1887 and the illness itself is generally believed to have accompanied mankind through its history.

            Written documents that identify Schizophrenia can be traced to the old Pharaonic Egypt, as far back as the second millennium before Christ. Depression, dementia, as well as thought disturbances that are typical in schizophrenia are described in detail in the Book of Hearts.”
            http://schizophrenia.com/history.htm#

          • AutismDadd

            What nonsense.

          • Proponent